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Rules Riddles

Postby AlfGit

Here are a couple of rules riddles to test your knowledge of the game. WPBSA 2020 rules apply. If you are a pro-ref, please give others a chance to answer first.

    1. You start your visit with only two reds remaining. You are 49 points behind. You do not have a free-ball, but you manage to clear up with a 50-break and win by one point. How is this possible?

    2. You come to the table and pot a red. The referee takes the red from the pocket and puts it on the black spot. Why?

Both questions were devised by me and I have not asked them anywhere else online.

I will post the answers in a couple of weeks, unless anybody gets them both right before then, in which case I will acknowledge them.
Last edited by AlfGit on 25 Mar 2021, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Rules Riddles

Postby Iranu

Great thread!

Re: Rules Riddles

Postby Juddernaut88

Interesting thread. It's certainly got me thinking.

Re: Rules Riddles

Postby McManusFan

Very interesting.

For 1. we need to find the missing 7 points. Maybe the opponent fouls during your break? The chalk flies out of their hand and hits the black, or something like that. Surely that would be 'foul seven', but it might just be a warning.

Re: Rules Riddles

Postby SnookerEd25

I think the answer to question 2 is :

You are playing Billiards.

Re: Rules Riddles

Postby Iranu

1. You are playing snooker plus?

Re: Rules Riddles

Postby eraserhead

Interesting thread. Thought a red can only come back out a pocket if it's been a foul, miss and the balls replaced. Hope acesinc sees this thread.

Re: Rules Riddles

Postby chengdufan

eraserhead wrote:Interesting thread. Thought a red can only come back out a pocket if it's been a foul, miss and the balls replaced. Hope acesinc sees this thread.

I think you've got the answer to number two. Player hits a ball not on first and subsequently as part of the same shot, the red which was on the black spot falls in a pocket. Ref calls foul and a miss, other player asks for the balls to be replaced.

Love this thread!

Re: Rules Riddles

Postby Empire State Human

1. Opponent misses with 3 reds left, one of which is on the edge of a pocket. As he leaves the table it falls in the pocket. It's replaced before you begin your break.

Re: Rules Riddles

Postby AlfGit

SnookerEd25 wrote:I think the answer to question 2 is :

You are playing Billiards.


This is a great answer, and of course it is perfectly valid, but it is not the answer I was looking for. It did not occur to me to think of billiards.

Both questions are for regular games of snooker. No billiards and no snooker plus. :-)

Re: Rules Riddles

Postby Prop

Question 2:

In potting the red, you play a push shot. Ref calls foul. Black is half a ball width off its spot, and obscuring another red which is the last red and only ball on for your opponent. Ref uses the red you’ve just potted to aid in determining whether your opponent can see both sides of the other red, and whether to award a free ball to your opponent, by placing it alongside the obscuring black (and by chance exactly on the black spot).

No way that’s right but I like these riddles!!!

Re: Rules Riddles

Postby SnookerEd25

Dan-cat wrote:Number one is doing my nut in! <laugh> <laugh>


Well, one answer is : Leo is reffing, and has one of his ‘moments’ :chuckle:

Re: Rules Riddles

Postby eraserhead

chengdufan wrote:
eraserhead wrote:Interesting thread. Thought a red can only come back out a pocket if it's been a foul, miss and the balls replaced. Hope acesinc sees this thread.

I think you've got the answer to number two. Player hits a ball not on first and subsequently as part of the same shot, the red which was on the black spot falls in a pocket. Ref calls foul and a miss, other player asks for the balls to be replaced.

Love this thread!

I didn't clock that the red may have been on the black spot. The fact that the ref spots it is throwing me off.

Re: Rules Riddles

Postby eraserhead

The only thing i can think off for number 1 is that the opponent is on the black and fouls it giving you 7 points. That's not 49 points behind when you get to the table though. :dizzy:

Re: Rules Riddles

Postby Dan-cat

eraserhead wrote:The only thing i can think off for number 1 is that the opponent is on the black and fouls it giving you 7 points. That's not 49 points behind when you get to the table though. :dizzy:


But it states 'you clear up with a 50 break' when there is only 43 on the table.

Re: Rules Riddles

Postby Andre147

Number 1 is a good question, I of course know the answer to it but I'll leave you all puzzled for a bit more!

Re: Rules Riddles

Postby Juddernaut88

Unless the ref has a blunder and puts a red back on the table and neither play notices and completely forget.

Re: Rules Riddles

Postby eraserhead

Dan-cat wrote:
eraserhead wrote:The only thing i can think off for number 1 is that the opponent is on the black and fouls it giving you 7 points. That's not 49 points behind when you get to the table though. :dizzy:


But it states 'you clear up with a 50 break' when there is only 43 on the table.

Missed that, my way would be to win with 50 points instead of a 50 break. :chin:

Re: Rules Riddles

Postby acesinc

Hi all, and Welcome AlfGit!

I am on the case...............



...............although on initial thought, I don't have any definite answers.

Starting with my "usual routine", my opinion is that any query about the Rules should be very, very specific and because of this, I generally begin to research a situation by first looking at Section 2, Definitions. Words mean things, and unfortunately, too often what a word may actually mean may not be the same thing that a speaker/writer/poster intended for that word to mean.

As for number 1), at the moment, I have nothing on it, no opinion yet. Will require a good think; maybe I will come up with something over the next couple days. A few points I can mention about it.....Iranu suggests, "You are playing snooker plus?" AlfGit states clearly that "WPBSA 2020 rules apply" and Snooker Plus is not included as part of the current Rule Set. I will also assume that "WPBSA 2020 rules apply" means "the Rules that are officially in use as of 2020" as the current Rule Set is actually revised as of November, 2019; presumably these are one and the same so......no Snooker Plus. Andre has already stated that he knows the answer for this so clearly, there must be one, but I haven't a clue.

To me, number 2) is more straightforward. Again, referencing the 2019/2020 Rule Set, this of course includes the Rules for both Snooker and its oft forgotten brother English Billiards. So I am in solidarity with SnookerEd that the answer should be that one is playing Billiards whence the Red is commonly potted and respotted. However, AlfGit has already nixed this as the answer; the question is referring to a Snooker scenario. So I want to point out a specific detail or two in this scenario. Again, remember, "words mean things". So the big problem here I think is the statement that you "pot a Red" and subsequently that Red is then placed "on the black spot". My first contention is the word "pot" which is only properly used in a positive context, but is often also misused in a negative context. By that I mean that to "pot" a ball means that one did so in the course of a fair stroke and received scoring points for the pot. One CANNOT "pot" the WRONG ball and thereby award penalty points to the opponent. Those two concepts are a contradiction of terms. Potting is a good positive thing; penalty points are a bad negative thing. My second contention is the use of "black spot". In English Billiards, that particular point on the table is referred to simply as the Spot (purposely capitalized because it is the name of a place, like London Bridge). In Snooker, that same point is then properly referred to as the Black Spot (notice then the subtle difference). So to call a specific point on the table the "black spot" then is a commonly understood reference to a point on the table, no matter what game is being played (rather like saying to someone, "I will meet you at the bridge...." (uncapitalized).

So that since the answer to number 2) is NOT "playing Billiards" as stated by AlfGit, and I suspect that the original query of number 2) contains unintended misrepresentations of definitions, my suspicion is that the answer does have something to do with a Foul and Miss scenario as others have stated, then requiring the Red to be replaced to the spot that it had previously occupied (there referred to as the "black spot"). Interestingly, AlfGit does use exactly the correct terminology in the description of "puts it on the black spot". Normally, after potting a Colour (fair stroke), that ball will then be "spotted" whether on its own or the required spot (in the event that its own spot is occupied). So to say, "placed on black spot" is NOT the same thing as saying that the Red is "spotted". "Placed on black spot" would seem to imply that it seemed to occupy that position previously and it was simply placed back to where it had been.

Interestingly, to the best of my knowledge (and I would ask Andre to help me out here), a ball is only considered to be "spotted" until such time as the very next stroke is played. Beyond that, the ball continues to occupy the spot, but it is not "spotted" per se. What does that mean? Think about a situation of a player asking the Referee to clean a ball. The Ref marks the position of the ball, picks it up, cleans it, and replaces it. But what if a player asks the Ref to clean the Black ball which is sitting on its own spot? Two things might happen. IF the player just potted Black, the Ref retrieved it and spots it on Black Spot, then the player asks for it to be cleaned, the Referee will simply pick it up, wipe it down and place it back on the Black Spot. BUT.......if the player just potted a Red, then looks to the Black (which gives every appearance of being EXACTLY on the Black Spot because the Ref just put it there a couple strokes ago and it has not been disturbed), and now the player asks for the Black to be cleaned, the Ref will MARK ITS POSITION, pick it up, clean and replace it. In other words, the Black was only "spotted" for the first, single stroke. After that, it occupies a position on the table which just happens to coincide with the Black Spot. Another subtle difference of definitions.

....................Just like Mr. Spock of Star Trek fame, following thoughts to their logical conclusion will invariably lead to the correct answer. In going through the thought process above, I came to the conclusion for the answer to scenario number 1) and it is as follows:

I will refer to the winning player who compiles a 50 point break as Player A. Player B then is his opponent. So Player A in a previous turn potted a Red but left himself completely snookered on all colours. He declared a Colour, played at it but missed and the Referee called "Foul and a Miss" (penalty points don't matter except that these penalty points now put Player B up by 49 points). Player B decided to replace the balls and put Player A back in on his stroke for which he could declare any Colour and Player A declares Black. Player A POTS Black beginning a new break with 7 points scored, two Reds remaining on the table. A full clearance with Blacks on the Reds results in a final break score of 50 and the frame won. Elementary.

So I think number 1) is solved. I will need to continue thinking about number 2) for a bit.

Re: Rules Riddles

Postby Iranu

Can anyone tl;dr Acesinc’s post?

Re: Rules Riddles

Postby Dan-cat

Iranu wrote:Can anyone tl;dr Acesinc’s post?


1. I don't know the answer to 1
2. The word 'pot' is never used negatively so I'm doubting the wording of the questions
3. Oh wait no I've thought about it yes I do know the answer to 1, the player is snookered on a colour, fouls and misses, player 2 puts him back in he nominates black and pots it (7 points), then the rest of the reds and blacks - break 50
4. I'll give 2 some thought

Re: Rules Riddles

Postby Iranu

Cheers Dan.

Interesting if number 1’s correct.

Re: Rules Riddles

Postby mick745

Can it be a foul and miss if there are only two reds left and difference of 49? The miss rule wouldnt apply would it?

Re: Rules Riddles

Postby Iranu

Mick’s just blown this thing wide open.