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Re: Ten players banned over match-fixing allegations

Postby HappyCamper

SnookerEd25 wrote:
Empire State Human wrote:https://wpbsa.com/wpbsa-statement-18-january-2023/

New statement.

The descriptions distinguish between "charged with fixing matches" and " charged with being concerned in fixing a match", although I'm not sure what the difference is. Does this mean they were aware of the fixing and didn't report it, as opposed to directly fixing the match themselves?


My interpretation would be : ‘fixing matches’ would be those that the player himself was taking part in; ‘concerned with fixing matches’ would be bribing / encouraging / threatening other players in a way that influence the outcome of a game that they themselves are not engaged in.

But, as so often from the snookering authorities, it is as clear as mud :hmmm:


they have an explicit 'approaching players to fix matches' in the charge sheet. so concerned with would likely be something different. i'd suggest being aware of an approach and failing to report it, or otherwise acting on the information for personal gain. also possibly spot fixing rather than outright match fixing - i'm not sure if the wpbsa make a distinction.

Re: Ten players banned over match-fixing allegations

Postby HappyCamper

SnookerEd25 wrote:Ah mebbees.

What is ‘spot fixing’?

I’m not familiar with this :chin:


fixing an event in a match other than outright outcome but which there are betting markets.

for example over/under market on number of centuries in a match - punters either bet that there will be more (over) or fewer (under) centuries in a match than a given number. a player could intentionally turn down a century to ensure the total is under for the match. but would still have won the frame fairly.

Re: Ten players banned over match-fixing allegations

Postby chengdufan

There are quite some subtle but important differences in the wording. I've arranged it a little differently, as below, with what I perceive to be the worst offences at the top. That said, whether being concerned in fixing matches is worse than fixing matches is unclear from the descriptions. It's possible that's worse, but to me fixing matches sounds worse.

Fixing matches on the World Snooker Tour
Yan Bingtao
Chen Zifan

Fixing a match on the World Snooker Tour
Zhang Jiankang
Chang Bingyu
Zhao Jianbo

Fixing a match
Lu Ning

Being concerned in fixing matches on the World Snooker Tour
Zhao Xintong

Being concerned in fixing matches
Liang Wenbo
Li Hang
Lu Ning

Being concerned in fixing a match on the World Snooker Tour
Bai Langning

Approaching players to fix matches on the World Snooker Tour
Liang Wenbo
Li Hang
Lu Ning

Seeking to obstruct the investigation
Liang Wenbo
Li Hang
Lu Ning

Betting on snooker matches
Li Hang
Lu Ning
Zhang Jiankang

Betting on snooker
Yan Bingtao
Zhao Xintong

Failing to cooperate with the WPBSA investigation
Liang Wenbo

Failing to report approaches for him to fix matches
Zhang Jiankang

Re: Ten players banned over match-fixing allegations

Postby Prop

chengdufan wrote:There are quite some subtle but important differences in the wording. I've arranged it a little differently, as below, with what I perceive to be the worst offences at the top. That said, whether being concerned in fixing matches is worse than fixing matches is unclear from the descriptions. It's possible that's worse, but to me fixing matches sounds worse.

Fixing matches on the World Snooker Tour
Yan Bingtao
Chen Zifan

Fixing a match on the World Snooker Tour
Zhang Jiankang
Chang Bingyu
Zhao Jianbo

Fixing a match
Lu Ning

Being concerned in fixing matches on the World Snooker Tour
Zhao Xintong

Being concerned in fixing matches
Liang Wenbo
Li Hang
Lu Ning

Being concerned in fixing a match on the World Snooker Tour
Bai Langning

Approaching players to fix matches on the World Snooker Tour
Liang Wenbo
Li Hang
Lu Ning

Seeking to obstruct the investigation
Liang Wenbo
Li Hang
Lu Ning

Betting on snooker matches
Li Hang
Lu Ning
Zhang Jiankang

Betting on snooker
Yan Bingtao
Zhao Xintong

Failing to cooperate with the WPBSA investigation
Liang Wenbo

Failing to report approaches for him to fix matches
Zhang Jiankang


I’d suggest ‘failing to cooperate’ and ‘seeking to obstruct the investigation’ might carry weightier penalties when they’re in conjunction with other offences. So maybe we shouldn’t look at those in isolation.

In simple terms, a player that denies an offence is likely to get a much longer ban than a player that admits an offence. We’ve seen that with the bans over the years.

Re: Ten players banned over match-fixing allegations

Postby SnookerEd25

HappyCamper wrote:
SnookerEd25 wrote:Ah mebbees.

What is ‘spot fixing’?

I’m not familiar with this :chin:


fixing an event in a match other than outright outcome but which there are betting markets.

for example over/under market on number of centuries in a match - punters either bet that there will be more (over) or fewer (under) centuries in a match than a given number. a player could intentionally turn down a century to ensure the total is under for the match. but would still have won the frame fairly.


Ah right. Think there was something similar in football before they clamped down on players betting? It was quite popular to bet on ‘first throw in’ etc. and then you’d see players slicing the ball out of play with their first touch.

:hmmm:

Re: Ten players banned over match-fixing allegations

Postby chengdufan

My interpretation of 'being concerned in match fixing' is that the person was directly involved with the fix, but was not playing in the match. In other words they planned and instigated it.

Re: Ten players banned over match-fixing allegations

Postby chengdufan

Prop wrote:
chengdufan wrote:There are quite some subtle but important differences in the wording. I've arranged it a little differently, as below, with what I perceive to be the worst offences at the top. That said, whether being concerned in fixing matches is worse than fixing matches is unclear from the descriptions. It's possible that's worse, but to me fixing matches sounds worse.

Fixing matches on the World Snooker Tour
Yan Bingtao
Chen Zifan

Fixing a match on the World Snooker Tour
Zhang Jiankang
Chang Bingyu
Zhao Jianbo

Fixing a match
Lu Ning

Being concerned in fixing matches on the World Snooker Tour
Zhao Xintong

Being concerned in fixing matches
Liang Wenbo
Li Hang
Lu Ning

Being concerned in fixing a match on the World Snooker Tour
Bai Langning

Approaching players to fix matches on the World Snooker Tour
Liang Wenbo
Li Hang
Lu Ning

Seeking to obstruct the investigation
Liang Wenbo
Li Hang
Lu Ning

Betting on snooker matches
Li Hang
Lu Ning
Zhang Jiankang

Betting on snooker
Yan Bingtao
Zhao Xintong

Failing to cooperate with the WPBSA investigation
Liang Wenbo

Failing to report approaches for him to fix matches
Zhang Jiankang


I’d suggest ‘failing to cooperate’ and ‘seeking to obstruct the investigation’ might carry weightier penalties when they’re in conjunction with other offences. So maybe we shouldn’t look at those in isolation.

In simple terms, a player that denies an offence is likely to get a much longer ban than a player that admits an offence. We’ve seen that with the bans over the years.

Failing to cooperate would be refusing to attend an investigation meeting.
Seeking to obstruct would be deliberately lying under questioning, trying to block someone from talking, destroying or attempting to destroy evidence.

Re: Ten players banned over match-fixing allegations

Postby chengdufan

Pure speculation here, but this is what might have happened based on the charges.

Liang, Lu and Li got together and discussed whether it would be possible to fix matches. They made a plan and gave it a try with Lu fixing a non-professional match.
It appeared to work and they brought Zhao in on the plan. Zhao gave some ideas of how they could fix pro matches in a similar way.
With the plan ready, they approached their trusted pals Yan, Chen, Zhang, Chang and Zhao to carry it out. At some point, Bai was involved in the planning for one of the matches. Zhang fixed one, but refused to fix any more.
Somebody blew the whistle and Liang, Li and Lu made attempts to stop everyone involved from talking. Liang fled.

Re: Ten players banned over match-fixing allegations

Postby Prop

chengdufan wrote:
Prop wrote:
chengdufan wrote:There are quite some subtle but important differences in the wording. I've arranged it a little differently, as below, with what I perceive to be the worst offences at the top. That said, whether being concerned in fixing matches is worse than fixing matches is unclear from the descriptions. It's possible that's worse, but to me fixing matches sounds worse.

Fixing matches on the World Snooker Tour
Yan Bingtao
Chen Zifan

Fixing a match on the World Snooker Tour
Zhang Jiankang
Chang Bingyu
Zhao Jianbo

Fixing a match
Lu Ning

Being concerned in fixing matches on the World Snooker Tour
Zhao Xintong

Being concerned in fixing matches
Liang Wenbo
Li Hang
Lu Ning

Being concerned in fixing a match on the World Snooker Tour
Bai Langning

Approaching players to fix matches on the World Snooker Tour
Liang Wenbo
Li Hang
Lu Ning

Seeking to obstruct the investigation
Liang Wenbo
Li Hang
Lu Ning

Betting on snooker matches
Li Hang
Lu Ning
Zhang Jiankang

Betting on snooker
Yan Bingtao
Zhao Xintong

Failing to cooperate with the WPBSA investigation
Liang Wenbo

Failing to report approaches for him to fix matches
Zhang Jiankang


I’d suggest ‘failing to cooperate’ and ‘seeking to obstruct the investigation’ might carry weightier penalties when they’re in conjunction with other offences. So maybe we shouldn’t look at those in isolation.

In simple terms, a player that denies an offence is likely to get a much longer ban than a player that admits an offence. We’ve seen that with the bans over the years.

Failing to cooperate would be refusing to attend an investigation meeting.
Seeking to obstruct would be deliberately lying under questioning, trying to block someone from talking, destroying or attempting to destroy evidence.


Yes, that’s right. I wasn’t suggesting otherwise. But what I am saying is that those offences often don’t occur exclusively of other offences.

They’re obstructing the investigation of an original offence.

And they’re failing to cooperate in the investigation of an original offence.

So look at it this way:

Offence of fixing a match x failing to cooperate

Offence of approaching players to fix a match x obstructing the investigation

When the FACTORS of non-cooperation and obstruction are in the equation, it will only serve to maximise the penalties for those original offences.

Re: Ten players banned over match-fixing allegations

Postby HappyCamper

possibly but not that likely surely. granted they are snooker players and not criminal masterminds, but if one were to fix matches for betting purposes why do something so eye catching and where suspicious betting patterns would stick out like a nun in a brothel.

Re: Ten players banned over match-fixing allegations

Postby gninnur karona

The order of the players appears to be deliberate rather than haphazard with those charged with the most serious offences at the top.

If charges are proven, the probable outcome, Liang Wenbo, Li Hang and Lu Ning appear to be set for career-ending suspensions.

The presence next of the two youngest top 16 players, Yan Bingtao and Zhao Xintong, is a devastating blow to the sport. The statement doesn't clarify the extent of the charges and whilst matches plural could be just two it doesn't sound like that. The responsibility for their actions lies squarely with the two players but WST/WPBSA must investigate why this has happened. Why have two already successful players heading for prosperous long-term careers fallen from grace?

Zhang Jiankang is the final one charged with betting on the list. I guess that is why he places number six.

Chen Zifan has multiple matches against his name.

And so to the final three. Chang Bingyu, Zhao Jianbo and Bai Langning between them played 30 matches on tour this season winning 11 and losing 19. I posted elsewhere that: Chang Bingyu beat Alexander Ursenbacher and Mark King; Zhao Jianbo recorded wins against Jackson Page, Ashley Hugill and Mark Allen. As for their 19 defeats every single one in my view went the way of the favourite. Their defences will make interesting reading.

Precedent in sentencing has been set. No reason that any of the ten players should be treated either more harshly or more leniently than those that have offended before.

I would like to believe that the resolution of this affair will mark a moment when the sport becomes completely clean but given the number of previous convictions for match-fixing and/or betting I am not convinced.

Re: Ten players banned over match-fixing allegations

Postby Prop

gninnur karona wrote:The order of the players appears to be deliberate rather than haphazard with those charged with the most serious offences at the top.

If charges are proven, the probable outcome, Liang Wenbo, Li Hang and Lu Ning appear to be set for career-ending suspensions.

The presence next of the two youngest top 16 players, Yan Bingtao and Zhao Xintong, is a devastating blow to the sport. The statement doesn't clarify the extent of the charges and whilst matches plural could be just two it doesn't sound like that. The responsibility for their actions lies squarely with the two players but WST/WPBSA must investigate why this has happened. Why have two already successful players heading for prosperous long-term careers fallen from grace?

Zhang Jiankang is the final one charged with betting on the list. I guess that is why he places number six.

Chen Zifan has multiple matches against his name.

And so to the final three. Chang Bingyu, Zhao Jianbo and Bai Langning between them played 30 matches on tour this season winning 11 and losing 19. I posted elsewhere that: Chang Bingyu beat Alexander Ursenbacher and Mark King; Zhao Jianbo recorded wins against Jackson Page, Ashley Hugill and Mark Allen. As for their 19 defeats every single one in my view went the way of the favourite. Their defences will make interesting reading.

Precedent in sentencing has been set. No reason that any of the ten players should be treated either more harshly or more leniently than those that have offended before.

I would like to believe that the resolution of this affair will mark a moment when the sport becomes completely clean but given the number of previous convictions for match-fixing and/or betting I am not convinced.


Good post.

Re: Ten players banned over match-fixing allegations

Postby snoopy2608

This is first of all a sad day for snooker.

World Snooker have listed them, it seems, in order of seriousness.

It would be good for details of specific matches to be recorded as soon as possible to reduce rumours.
Hopefully the hearings can be arranged.

I would assume the bans that get handed out (if guilty) will result in the 9 tour players all losing their tour card, either at the end of this season or the next.

Re: Ten players banned over match-fixing allegations

Postby SnookerFan

Pink Ball wrote:I'm genuinely gutted to see Yan Bingtao so far up that list. Nobody found guilty yet, but it's clear he is facing a very serious reprimand. Best young player in the world by a country mile, in a sport nearly empty of young talent, now this.


Definitely one to watch.

Re: Ten players banned over match-fixing allegations

Postby Cazoo

Pink Ball wrote:I'm genuinely gutted to see Yan Bingtao so far up that list. Nobody found guilty yet, but it's clear he is facing a very serious reprimand. Best young player in the world by a country mile, in a sport nearly empty of young talent, now this.


If he’s found guilty of fixing multiple matches, then he should not be allowed to play on the tour again.

Re: Ten players banned over match-fixing allegations

Postby Pink Ball

Cazoo wrote:
Pink Ball wrote:I'm genuinely gutted to see Yan Bingtao so far up that list. Nobody found guilty yet, but it's clear he is facing a very serious reprimand. Best young player in the world by a country mile, in a sport nearly empty of young talent, now this.


If he’s found guilty of fixing multiple matches, then he should not be allowed to play on the tour again.

I don't agree he should get a lifetime ban, but he's definitely looking at a few years out of the game, and if he's guilty, rightly so.

Re: Ten players banned over match-fixing allegations

Postby Cazoo

Pink Ball wrote:
Cazoo wrote:
Pink Ball wrote:I'm genuinely gutted to see Yan Bingtao so far up that list. Nobody found guilty yet, but it's clear he is facing a very serious reprimand. Best young player in the world by a country mile, in a sport nearly empty of young talent, now this.


If he’s found guilty of fixing multiple matches, then he should not be allowed to play on the tour again.

I don't agree he should get a lifetime ban, but he's definitely looking at a few years out of the game, and if he's guilty, rightly so.


So what would you say warrants a lifetime ban from the sport? As far as I’m concerned this is exactly the purpose of lifetime bans. Clearly the 12 years given to Lee didn’t set enough of an example to these players. Anyone found guilty of match fixing needs to be permanently banned from our sport and the WBPSA should come out and say that anyone who gets involved with match fixing from now on will receive the same punishment. It’s the only way forward as far as I’m concerned.

It would be very wrong for the governing body to just welcome match fixers back to sport. They’ve disrespected the game, the fans and the people who pay their wages. They have no place on the tour.

Re: Ten players banned over match-fixing allegations

Postby SteveJJ

gninnur karona wrote:The order of the players appears to be deliberate rather than haphazard with those charged with the most serious offences at the top.

If charges are proven, the probable outcome, Liang Wenbo, Li Hang and Lu Ning appear to be set for career-ending suspensions.

The presence next of the two youngest top 16 players, Yan Bingtao and Zhao Xintong, is a devastating blow to the sport. The statement doesn't clarify the extent of the charges and whilst matches plural could be just two it doesn't sound like that. The responsibility for their actions lies squarely with the two players but WST/WPBSA must investigate why this has happened. Why have two already successful players heading for prosperous long-term careers fallen from grace?

Zhang Jiankang is the final one charged with betting on the list. I guess that is why he places number six.

Chen Zifan has multiple matches against his name.

And so to the final three. Chang Bingyu, Zhao Jianbo and Bai Langning between them played 30 matches on tour this season winning 11 and losing 19. I posted elsewhere that: Chang Bingyu beat Alexander Ursenbacher and Mark King; Zhao Jianbo recorded wins against Jackson Page, Ashley Hugill and Mark Allen. As for their 19 defeats every single one in my view went the way of the favourite. Their defences will make interesting reading.

Precedent in sentencing has been set. No reason that any of the ten players should be treated either more harshly or more leniently than those that have offended before.

I would like to believe that the resolution of this affair will mark a moment when the sport becomes completely clean but given the number of previous convictions for match-fixing and/or betting I am not convinced.



Good post. I take your point about Yan and Zhao, but especially with Zhao who had a meteoric rise in the last 13 months, the games may have been before his upturn in fortune.