Post a reply

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby SnookerArcher

Iranu wrote:Don’t forget it’s in Hearn’s interest to promote the game as being way stronger than ever. He’s a manager and a promoter, not a snooker player or coach.


Yes it's typical recency bias that rears its head in all sports, that newer generations get stronger and better by default, yes as a business interest you want the sport to keep growing so promote it as something that keeps getting better so fans keep looking forward, less backwards as it's more profitable that way. If people believe a past great is the GOAT many won't be as interested with the current era e.g. a lot of older NBA fans pay much less attention or don't follow recent NBA as they're Michael Jordanites. From what I know snooker's rules have been very consistent over the eras but other sports change to make them more appealing for audiences.

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby LC

SnookerArcher wrote:
Acé wrote:
Cloud Strife wrote:There was never a war to begin with. Judd has never been, and never will be, in the same league as Ronnie O'Sullivan.


not accomplishments wise but H2H and 1v1 match they are even


That is some achievement and often Judd's led the H2H, Ronnie's H2H is in his favour vs everyother top player from what I've seen, John Parrott has the best H2H vs him of anyone and is quite a bit in Parrott's favour

https://cuetracker.net/head-to-head/joh ... -osullivan

But these are early in Ronnie's career. Higgins has beaten Ronnie more than anyone else but Ronnie leads it slightly, Higgins was ahead in 2016-17 though, the greatest snooker rivalry is between them two terms of matches played, at 71 now is it?

When asked who are Ronnie's toughest opponents he always mentions Hendry and Higgins but sometimes mentions Trump. Interesting he never says Selby, the man who's given him much grief and the only one that beat him in a UK and World final.

Johnny Bravo, if you cut a limb off for Ronnie would you fall out of the top 50?

And the masters, which is quite a feather in your cap to have won the triple crown in affect against ROS, as much as dislike selbys style that is impressive

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby SnookerArcher

LC wrote:And the masters, which is quite a feather in your cap to have won the triple crown in affect against ROS, as much as dislike selbys style that is impressive


Yes he stands alone to complete his TC through Ronnie (For (I hope) a tiny minority of fans who think Selby is the GOAT that's one big thing to boast), hopefully no one else will repeat that feat, better still if Ronnie returns the favour to Selby! (Though Selby has not been a factor in the UK for a while (Or Masters though Ronnie's beaten him there before anyway) & I'll settle for that epic 2020 SF win for Ronnie as retribution for 2014's final. I like Kyren but it's probably largely acknowledged whoever won out of Ronnie & Selby would take the final too.

I imagine beating Ronnie in the UK was a huge inspiration for him to defend his world title too, I didn't see any of the UK as I was abroad but from what I read it was a good standard in the evening with 5 centuries in a row to finish it. (He had a monster season), definitely my least favourite snooker season of the last decade! Barring Ronnie's record 7th Masters title but even then the standard was suspect with his cue tip issues, the Marco Fu SF was good though despite the cue tip issue, the Joe Perry final was so different to how sharp Ronnie was a year earlier where he put Selby & Bingham in their place & skewered Barry 10-1 winning 10 in a row.

Seems the best way to beat Selby is positive play, all out attack and excellent shot making, his suffocating play won't work against that, I would have thought Shaun Murphy would have been the ideal player to beat him in last year's world final but he failed. Ding could have beaten him I feel in 2016 but he had a terrible start most likely from nerves in his first world final. 2017 he had a good first session but Selby has his way of pulling things back in the 2nd session, he did it to Ronnie too in 2020.

Almost seems with Selby you're better off not getting a lead as he plays ever more desperately in his negative way the more insecure he is! If Ronnie's the worst person to fall behind to, Selby's maybe the worst to go in front? (In particular 2014's world final)

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby TheRocket

The reason why he says that Hendry and Higgins (and sometimes he adds Trump) are the two or three best players he has ever faced is because they are the only players who really outplayed and even hammered him on several occasions. Particularly Higgins did it on many occasions so he has a lot more respect for them.

Selby hasnt really done that and whenever Selby has beaten him I'd guess Ronnie probably feels his opponent rather did grind him down than anything else and he always mentions that he made a big mistake by getting involved into Selbys type of game at the World final in 2014.

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby D4P

It's easy to see why Ronnie has so much reverence for Higgins.

Head to head in ranking and invitational events:

Higgins: 31-28

Head to head in ranking events:

Higgins 21-13

Those are undoubtedly the most losses Ronnie has against any player...

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby Johnny Bravo

SnookerArcher wrote:When asked who are Ronnie's toughest opponents he always mentions Hendry and Higgins but sometimes mentions Trump. Interesting he never says Selby, the man who's given him much grief and the only one that beat him in a UK and World final.

Selbo beat him in a World Final in 2014, a Masters final in 2010 and a UK final in 2016.
Selbo is indeed a pain in the bottom for Ronnie, but I reckon that's got to do more with his annoying and very negative and boring style of play rather than the level of the play itself.

Trump and Higgins have played to the highest level against Ronnie. At times Robertson too.

SnookerArcher wrote:Johnny Bravo, if you cut a limb off for Ronnie would you fall out of the top 50?

I don't get this question.
Did you mean would I cut off a limb for Ronnie if he falls of the top 50 ? :? :chin:

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby Johnny Bravo

SnookerArcher wrote: From what I know snooker's rules have been very consistent over the eras but other sports change to make them more appealing for audiences.

In most other main sports (football, basketball), the rules have been modified/tweaked in order to make the sport more spectacular, thus draw more crowds and earn more money.
But in many instances, these changes have made the sport weaker/easier and helped/benefitted attacking players.

For example, in football, defenders can't tackle liked they used to, which makes it easier to score many goals.
Ronaldo Fenomeno, Maradona, Van Basten, Zico, Pele - would have a field day in this era, they'd score double what they did in their time.
Same happened in basketball, they outlawed "hand-checking", which has made scoring points way easier.
Michael Jordan could score 100 points a game nowadays.

Only in tennis it is the other way around, changes have helped defensive boring grinders like Djokovic.
In order to prolong rallies and draw more spectators (and thus money), the tennis governing body has made balls heavier and the courts slower.

This has been detrimental to attacking players like Federer and to big servers like Sampras or Ivanisevic, who saw their advantages taken away from them.
Djokovic would have never won Wimblendon under the old playing conditions.

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby Johnny Bravo

TheRocket wrote:The reason why he says that Hendry and Higgins (and sometimes he adds Trump) are the two or three best players he has ever faced is because they are the only players who really outplayed and even hammered him on several occasions. Particularly Higgins did it on many occasions so he has a lot more respect for them.

Selby hasnt really done that and whenever Selby has beaten him I'd guess Ronnie probably feels his opponent rather did grind him down than anything else and he always mentions that he made a big mistake by getting involved into Selbys type of game at the World final in 2014.

Yes that is true. Ronnie feels that Hendry, Higgins and Trump basically beat him at his own game, outplayed him, whereas with Selby, Ronnie feels it was more a case of him faltering then Selby playing to a higher standard.

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby badtemperedcyril

What a load of guff. It’s as if Selby’s victories over Ronnie in TC finals somehow don’t count because apparently Ronnie didn’t play well. You can only play as well as your opponent lets you. What’s Selby supposed to do, leave him in the balls so he can “play his natural game”? What an absolute pile of horse dung!!

People have very short memories… Davis was the ultimate bore in the mid-80’s - just take a look at his matches on YouTube - he literally kept the pack tight, the colours tucked up and would win numerous frames with maybe a dozen or so scoring visits. Loads of single shot-to-nothing long reds followed by trickling up to a baulk colour. It really wasn’t pretty.

Before anyone starts, I for one am not disputing Ronnie’s GOAT status. That is secure and no longer a debate. But for puck sake, have some respect for other players achievements.

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby SnookerArcher

True both sides. With the 2 Ronnie has the better H2H but it's respectable for the losing player, Hendry was fearless, Higgins is the supreme all rounder. Trump also is fearless. Selby 1 thing against him same as Robbo H2H isn't close vs Ronnie.

That is true if Ronnie is playing well by his standards Selby usually isn't a threat, as demonstrated by the magical almost last 3frame burst in 2020's SF crucible. Scrappy play won't work against someone flying.

The victories count though, I didn't watch 2016's UK but it sounded a high standard, nothing like 2014's wretched session 3. True also it's an ugly way to play but it's big money at stake & legacies, prestige, ranking points... Selby like everyother player should play to their strengths to give the best chance of winning. He may be my least favourite player but I won't deny Selby's place among the greats, he's certainly nowhere near GOAT though, anyone who thinks he is is a lunatic.

My dad loved Alex Higgins & hated Davis!

If MJ would score 100 in today's game then Wilt Chamberlain would score 200!

https://cuetracker.net/head-to-head/ron ... hn-higgins

Their pro history of clashes.

I'm no expert but from what I've seen with Ronnie's losses to Higgins & Trump, he's too tight vs Higgins & Judd the opposite. Higgins is the master tactician so Ronnie should play to his advantage over him which is offence! (Much like vs Selby). Trump is a better shot maker, even if he isn't Ronnie has the better all round game, I felt with 2018-19 Ronnie with getting his long game back I assume due to Sightright he focused too much on trying to outscore Trump rather than outwit him so his H2H suffered from it, just 1 win from 2018 NI Open final to 2021 vs 5 defeats.

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby Johnny Bravo

Minimum Break wrote:
Johnny Bravo wrote:Djokovic would have never won Wimblendon under the old playing conditions.


You mean when Bjorn Borg won it 5 times in a row?

Borg was not a boring grinder like Djokovic.
And I was talking about late 90s-early 00s playing conditions.

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby Johnny Bravo

badtemperedcyril wrote:What a load of guff.............What an absolute pile of horse dung!!
It's a fact, whether you like it or not.



badtemperedcyril wrote:What’s Selby supposed to do, leave him in the balls so he can “play his natural game”?
No, you did not understand. Selby did not beat Ronnie at his own game, by playing what ROS considers "proper snooker", that is why ROS doesn't respect Selby as much as Hendry, Trump and Higgins.
Hendry and Trump beat ROS by playing the same type of game, basically fighting fire with fire.
Higgins a bit more of an all rounder, but still beat ROS without having to make things scrappy.
Selby needs to make things scrappy, otherwise he cannot beat ROS, that's why ROS does not respect him.


badtemperedcyril wrote:People have very short memories… Davis was the ultimate bore in the mid-80’s - just take a look at his matches on YouTube - he literally kept the pack tight, the colours tucked up and would win numerous frames with maybe a dozen or so scoring visits. Loads of single shot-to-nothing long reds followed by trickling up to a baulk colour. It really wasn’t pretty.
And nobody questioned that. Davis was incredibly boring, that's why people loved Alex Higgins and Jimmy White instead of him.

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby Dragonfly

Johnny Bravo wrote:
badtemperedcyril wrote:What a load of guff.............What an absolute pile of horse dung!!
It's a fact, whether you like it or not.



badtemperedcyril wrote:What’s Selby supposed to do, leave him in the balls so he can “play his natural game”?
No, you did not understand. Selby did not beat Ronnie at his own game, by playing what ROS considers "proper snooker", that is why ROS doesn't respect Selby as much as Hendry, Trump and Higgins.
Hendry and Trump beat ROS by playing the same type of game, basically fighting fire with fire.
Higgins a bit more of an all rounder, but still beat ROS without having to make things scrappy.
Selby needs to make things scrappy, otherwise he cannot beat ROS, that's why ROS does not respect him.


badtemperedcyril wrote:People have very short memories… Davis was the ultimate bore in the mid-80’s - just take a look at his matches on YouTube - he literally kept the pack tight, the colours tucked up and would win numerous frames with maybe a dozen or so scoring visits. Loads of single shot-to-nothing long reds followed by trickling up to a baulk colour. It really wasn’t pretty.
And nobody questioned that. Davis was incredibly boring, that's why people loved Alex Higgins and Jimmy White instead of him.


I don't think that Davis was boring as such. He was just so far ahead of the opposition, and used to win a lot of matches by such huge margins. That's what made his matches boring a lot of the time. But on the few occasions when his opponents put him under pressure then Davis was involved in some of the most memorable and gripping matches.

I wouldn't say Davis style of play in the final session of the 84 final against White was boring for example. But certainly when he used to win matches by 13-2 or whatever, then of course it's going to be dull.

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby Holden Chinaski

Cyril, please don't listen to Johnny Bravo, he's an idiot. And please don't think all Ronnie fans are like him. He's not even a real Ronnie fan. When Ronnie's playing Johnny always calls him an idiot who plays the wrong shots. He has no clue at all about snooker.

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby badtemperedcyril

Johnny Bravo wrote:No, you did not understand. Selby did not beat Ronnie at his own game, by playing what ROS considers "proper snooker", that is why ROS doesn't respect Selby as much as Hendry, Trump and Higgins.
Hendry and Trump beat ROS by playing the same type of game, basically fighting fire with fire.
Higgins a bit more of an all rounder, but still beat ROS without having to make things scrappy.
Selby needs to make things scrappy, otherwise he cannot beat ROS, that's why ROS does not respect him.

I understand perfectly, thanks.


Why do snooker matches have to be won on Ronnie's terms? The idea of being a great match player is to have the ability to dictate the tempo to suit yourself, depending on the state of play. Ronnie speeds up and slows down as the situation demands, as do all the great players.

Hendry fought Ronnie fire with fire because that's the only way he knew how. When he could no longer match Ronnie at that game he started getting battered. Trump was much the same but he's leaned to reign it in.

Most of Ronnie's praise in recent times has been reserved for Higgins because he's developed an affection towards him, born out of the fact that they've tossed titles about between them for 30 years. He praises Hendry out of respect because the guys a living legend. He praises Trump mostly to deflect the pressure from himself... "I can't pot them like him at my age bla bla". On the odd occasion that Ronnie's gone gung ho against Selby he's actually paying him a compliment. It means he's up against the ropes and it's the only option he has left to break free. If you knew Ronnie you'd know deep down he has the utmost respect for Selby both as a snooker player and as a man.

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby badtemperedcyril

Dragonfly wrote:I don't think that Davis was boring as such. He was just so far ahead of the opposition, and used to win a lot of matches by such huge margins. That's what made his matches boring a lot of the time. But on the few occasions when his opponents put him under pressure then Davis was involved in some of the most memorable and gripping matches.

I wouldn't say Davis style of play in the final session of the 84 final against White was boring for example. But certainly when he used to win matches by 13-2 or whatever, then of course it's going to be dull.


I probably should've been more specific. Davis didn't always employ the same tactics. Sometimes he would attack an opponent. He usually went on the ultra defensive when he was up against another good safety player, like Thorburn, Taylor or Griffiths. It was as if he thought "if I can out play you in the safety department, I'll win, because there's no way you'll outplay me at potting and break building".

Davis bogged himself down on occasions. The '85 final against Taylor was a classic example. He built up a huge lead, primarily by playing tight, no risk snooker. Most of the frames were long and drawn out but he nonetheless led 8-1. The problem with that strategy is that its very tiring. By the evening session of the first day, Davis' concentration started to wane and that allowed Taylor to get a foot hold on the match and mount a recovery.

I agree with you, I don't recall Davis being ultra careful against White in '84. To be fair, he only had to stand up on the first day. Jimmy was so hungover from the night before he put up no resistance whatsoever.

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby Iranu

To be fair to Johnny (need to wash my metaphorical mouth out now) the conversation was about why Ronnie specifically might not give Selby as much credit as the other players mentioned. Not about Selby’s achievements themselves.

Given what we know about Ronnie and what he considers the “proper way” to play snooker, that doesn’t seem like an outrageous suggestion. Although personally I’d throw in a healthy dose of personal dislike, too.

Of course, the idea that Selby is physically incapable of beating Ronnie without grinding him down is nonsense.

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby Holden Chinaski

badtemperedcyril wrote: The idea of being a great match player is to have the ability to dictate the tempo to suit yourself, depending on the state of play. .

And this why Ronnie decided to play those 'hit and hope' shots when Selby tried to dictate the tempo with the safety play. It was Ronnie refusing to play Selby's game, and proving afterwards that he's so good he doesn't even have to take Selby serious when he's trying to slow things down. It was a great tactic from Ronnie. This is why Selby looked so gutted after that match. He got outsmarted and outplayed by Ronnie, and even humiliated a bit. Selby has often got into Ronnie's head, but that time Ronnie turned things around and played flawless snooker to win the match.

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby Johnny Bravo

Holden Chinaski wrote:Cyril, please don't listen to Johnny Bravo, he's an idiot. And please don't think all Ronnie fans are like him. He's not even a real Ronnie fan. When Ronnie's playing Johnny always calls him an idiot who plays the wrong shots. He has no clue at all about snooker.

Go buck yourself, you're the idiot.

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby Holden Chinaski

Johnny Bravo wrote:
Holden Chinaski wrote:Cyril, please don't listen to Johnny Bravo, he's an idiot. And please don't think all Ronnie fans are like him. He's not even a real Ronnie fan. When Ronnie's playing Johnny always calls him an idiot who plays the wrong shots. He has no clue at all about snooker.

Go buck yourself, you're the idiot.

Didn't you say Ronnie is the idiot? I think you've said that about a hundred times on here? :chin:

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby Johnny Bravo

Iranu wrote:To be fair to Johnny (need to wash my metaphorical mouth out now) the conversation was about why Ronnie specifically might not give Selby as much credit as the other players mentioned. Not about Selby’s achievements themselves.

Given what we know about Ronnie and what he considers the “proper way” to play snooker, that doesn’t seem like an outrageous suggestion. Although personally I’d throw in a healthy dose of personal dislike, too.

:hatoff: :hatoff: :hatoff:

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby Holden Chinaski

I think it's funny how Johnny is now defending Ronnie's attacking 'proper snooker' style, but when Ronnie's actually playing he says Ronnie should play safe more and should stop going for the black all the time. <doh>

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby Johnny Bravo

badtemperedcyril wrote:
Johnny Bravo wrote:No, you did not understand. Selby did not beat Ronnie at his own game, by playing what ROS considers "proper snooker", that is why ROS doesn't respect Selby as much as Hendry, Trump and Higgins.
Hendry and Trump beat ROS by playing the same type of game, basically fighting fire with fire.
Higgins a bit more of an all rounder, but still beat ROS without having to make things scrappy.
Selby needs to make things scrappy, otherwise he cannot beat ROS, that's why ROS does not respect him.

I understand perfectly, thanks.


Why do snooker matches have to be won on Ronnie's terms? The idea of being a great match player is to have the ability to dictate the tempo to suit yourself, depending on the state of play. Ronnie speeds up and slows down as the situation demands, as do all the great players.

Hendry fought Ronnie fire with fire because that's the only way he knew how. When he could no longer match Ronnie at that game he started getting battered. Trump was much the same but he's leaned to reign it in.

Most of Ronnie's praise in recent times has been reserved for Higgins because he's developed an affection towards him, born out of the fact that they've tossed titles about between them for 30 years. He praises Hendry out of respect because the guys a living legend. He praises Trump mostly to deflect the pressure from himself... "I can't pot them like him at my age bla bla". On the odd occasion that Ronnie's gone gung ho against Selby he's actually paying him a compliment. It means he's up against the ropes and it's the only option he has left to break free. If you knew Ronnie you'd know deep down he has the utmost respect for Selby both as a snooker player and as a man.

Iranu said it best. It's not like Selby has to play the way Ronnie thinks the game should be played, but the thing is Ronnie has more respect for players who are able to beat him while playing the same type of snooker he does.

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby Johnny Bravo

Holden Chinaski wrote:I think it's funny how Johnny is now defending Ronnie's attacking 'proper snooker' style, but when Ronnie's actually playing he says Ronnie should play safe more and should stop going for the black all the time. <doh>

Going for another color does not mean he's less attacking.
I only criticize him for playing shots that are overly aggressive and very low percentage, especially when he has another easier option.
I've always loved his attacking style, but that doesn't mean he has to go for everything. Ronnie himself has learned this and nowadays he's a bit more measured (on most occasions anyway).

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby Holden Chinaski

Johnny Bravo wrote:
Holden Chinaski wrote:I think it's funny how Johnny is now defending Ronnie's attacking 'proper snooker' style, but when Ronnie's actually playing he says Ronnie should play safe more and should stop going for the black all the time. <doh>

Going for another color does not mean he's less attacking.
I only criticize him for playing shots that are overly aggressive and very low percentage, especially when he has another easier option.
I've always loved his attacking style, but that doesn't mean he has to go for everything. Ronnie himself has learned this and nowadays he's a bit more measured (on most occasions anyway).

Every single Ronnie match you are on here saying he will lose and he plays the wrong shots.

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby Holden Chinaski

Johnny Bravo wrote:Ronnie's an idiot, his shot selection is worse than a 2 year old. Why the buck would he play that ?


Johnny Bravo wrote:Ronnie you IDIOT <doh> <doh> <doh> >-( >-( >-( >-(


Johnny Bravo wrote:
SnookerFan wrote:Ronnie still favourite.

The only thing he's favorite is to win the ULTIMATE STUPIDITY award <doh> <doh> <doh>

Re: WAR IS OVER! RONNIE O'SULLIVAN IS THE GOAT!

Postby badtemperedcyril

Iranu wrote:To be fair to Johnny (need to wash my metaphorical mouth out now) the conversation was about why Ronnie specifically might not give Selby as much credit as the other players mentioned. Not about Selby’s achievements themselves.

Given what we know about Ronnie and what he considers the “proper way” to play snooker, that doesn’t seem like an outrageous suggestion. Although personally I’d throw in a healthy dose of personal dislike, too.

Of course, the idea that Selby is physically incapable of beating Ronnie without grinding him down is nonsense.

Sometimes I forget what the conversation is about with Juliet Bravo and go off on a completely different tangent - she has that affect on people :argue: