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Who is greater?

Selby
12
55%
Williams
10
45%
 
Total votes : 22

Re: Has Selby surpassed Williams in all-time great list?

Postby Andre147

Actually Selby has done far better in the short Best of 7s of the Home Nations than the TC events.

This year's worlds was actually Selby's first TC Final and title for over 4 years!

Re: Has Selby surpassed Williams in all-time great list?

Postby Pink Ball

mick745 wrote:Top three for me are Davis, O'Sullivan, Hendry, whatever order people wish to put them in.

The next group are Selby, Reardon, Williams, J.Higgins.

Then Trump and Robertson as their wsc records are too weak currently.

But none of that second group are ahead of any from that first group.

John Higgins was a better player than Steve Davis. If I tiered the official top 20, I'd go:

1. O'Sullivan (1) and Hendry (2)
2. J Higgins (3) and Davis (4)
3. Williams (5), Selby (6), Reardon (7)
4. Robertson (8), Trump (9)
5. Alex Higgins (10), Ding Junhui (11)
6. Peter Ebdon (12), Jimmy White (13), John Parrott (14), John Spencer (15)
7. Shaun Murphy (16) and Ken Doherty (17)
8. Cliff Thorburn (18), Terry Griffiths (19), Stuart Bingham (20)

Re: Has Selby surpassed Williams in all-time great list?

Postby Wildey

Dragonfly wrote:
Wildey wrote:
TheRocket wrote:If Selby won a 5th World title would he be ahead of Higgins?

No


but he will be getting extremely close

of course if he won 5 in the next season including the World then we will have to re valuate things.


Selby's achievement of winning 5 ranking tournaments in a season 2016/2017 included both UK and World Championship you could say that Trumps Trump 6 in a season.


I think if Selby wins a fifth and Higgins is stuck on 4 then yes, Selby will have surpassed him. Apart from the Worlds obviously being the most important statistic, Selby has won plenty of Masters etc as well.

I won't be surprised if Selby doesn't go far in a lot of the less important events next season. He is clearly vulnerable in the short matches. But he is a big occasion player and I definitely think he will more triple crown events.

You say that but Mark Selby has actually won more PTC than any other player with 7 and been runner up in 3 and in terms of Home Nations he's won 3 only Judd with 4 has won more.

Re: Has Selby surpassed Williams in all-time great list?

Postby Dragonfly

Wildey wrote:
Dragonfly wrote:
Wildey wrote:
TheRocket wrote:If Selby won a 5th World title would he be ahead of Higgins?

No


but he will be getting extremely close

of course if he won 5 in the next season including the World then we will have to re valuate things.


Selby's achievement of winning 5 ranking tournaments in a season 2016/2017 included both UK and World Championship you could say that Trumps Trump 6 in a season.


I think if Selby wins a fifth and Higgins is stuck on 4 then yes, Selby will have surpassed him. Apart from the Worlds obviously being the most important statistic, Selby has won plenty of Masters etc as well.

I won't be surprised if Selby doesn't go far in a lot of the less important events next season. He is clearly vulnerable in the short matches. But he is a big occasion player and I definitely think he will more triple crown events.

You say that but Mark Selby has actually won more PTC than any other player with 7 and been runner up in 3 and in terms of Home Nations he's won 3 only Judd with 4 has won more.


I'll take your word for that. I don't really take much interest in PTCs. Perhaps he's not as vulnerable as I thought. He's still a big occasion player though and will feature in major events over the next few years.

Re: Has Selby surpassed Williams in all-time great list?

Postby Juddernaut88

Acé wrote:interesting to note Selby is so far away from his contemporaries Robertson and Murphy (4 WC > 1 WC) yet she's so close in everything else with Robertson for example


Let's hope Judd overtakes Selby.

Re: Has Selby surpassed Williams in all-time great list?

Postby TheRocket

even though I put Selby above Williams people rightfully mentioned that Williams main rivals and contemporaries have been two legends who on most All Time Great lists are in the Top3 of the best ever, certainly Ronnie. And Hendry obviously. MJW competed against the Top3. So thats something that will always speak for him and its a huge feat hes won as much as he did.

Selby on the other hand has always had an 8 year advantage over Higgins and ROS while his contemporaries are indeed Robertson and Murphy as Ace pointed out. Robertson has the edge over him in the H2H but simply fails to produce at the Crucible. Murphy is a good player but not a great one.

Re: Has Selby surpassed Williams in all-time great list?

Postby LDS

TheRocket wrote:Murphy is a good player but not a great one.


I apologise in advance for nit-picking you again, but Murphy is a great player, just not a GOAT player.

I think if you're going to rate people lower than great then you're moving into a category well below the people who've made the WC on multiple occasions, win or lose, let alone many other tournament finals.

I think you'd need to get down to Bond or Fu levels before you'd have to start changing your descriptor from great to something marginally lesser.

Re: Has Selby surpassed Williams in all-time great list?

Postby Acé

Juddernaut88 wrote:
Acé wrote:interesting to note Selby is so far away from his contemporaries Robertson and Murphy (4 WC > 1 WC) yet she's so close in everything else with Robertson for example


Let's hope Judd overtakes Selby.


He can win 3-4 WCs in total but he has to do it and I don't wanna keep stacking on "10 more years" everytime Judd loses

he unfortunately has the favourite tag going into each WC these days and all eyes on him to perform

Re: Has Selby surpassed Williams in all-time great list?

Postby TheRocket

When we compare Murphy and his career with the rest of the tour he is obviously a great player, no doubt.

I should say in the context of comparing Williams contemporaries with Selbys, Murphy is well behind the other names that has been mentioned. Robertson imo included despite his poor WC record but thats my personal opinion.

Williams definitely had the stronger contemporaries, thats for sure. But Selby has had the greater career and thats what counts more.

Re: Has Selby surpassed Williams in all-time great list?

Postby badtemperedcyril

Pink Ball wrote:
mick745 wrote:Top three for me are Davis, O'Sullivan, Hendry, whatever order people wish to put them in.

The next group are Selby, Reardon, Williams, J.Higgins.

Then Trump and Robertson as their wsc records are too weak currently.

But none of that second group are ahead of any from that first group.

John Higgins was a better player than Steve Davis. If I tiered the official top 20, I'd go:

1. O'Sullivan (1) and Hendry (2)
2. J Higgins (3) and Davis (4)
3. Williams (5), Selby (6), Reardon (7)
4. Robertson (8), Trump (9)
5. Alex Higgins (10), Ding Junhui (11)
6. Peter Ebdon (12), Jimmy White (13), John Parrott (14), John Spencer (15)
7. Shaun Murphy (16) and Ken Doherty (17)
8. Cliff Thorburn (18), Terry Griffiths (19), Stuart Bingham (20)


When Reardon was No.1 there was no debate as to whether he was GOAT. That tag always went to Joe. It wasn’t until the emergence of Steve Davis as a multiple WC in around 84/85 when people started to debate whether in fact, Steve had overtaken King Joe as GOAT. Thus, why is Reardon so highly ranked (not that I disagree with his high standing) yet Joe, or Fred, for that matter, is forgotten?

Re: Has Selby surpassed Williams in all-time great list?

Postby badtemperedcyril

Pink Ball wrote:
mick745 wrote:Top three for me are Davis, O'Sullivan, Hendry, whatever order people wish to put them in.

The next group are Selby, Reardon, Williams, J.Higgins.

Then Trump and Robertson as their wsc records are too weak currently.

But none of that second group are ahead of any from that first group.

John Higgins was a better player than Steve Davis. If I tiered the official top 20, I'd go:

1. O'Sullivan (1) and Hendry (2)
2. J Higgins (3) and Davis (4)
3. Williams (5), Selby (6), Reardon (7)
4. Robertson (8), Trump (9)
5. Alex Higgins (10), Ding Junhui (11)
6. Peter Ebdon (12), Jimmy White (13), John Parrott (14), John Spencer (15)
7. Shaun Murphy (16) and Ken Doherty (17)
8. Cliff Thorburn (18), Terry Griffiths (19), Stuart Bingham (20)


When Reardon was No.1 there was no debate as to whether he was GOAT. That tag always went to Joe. It wasn’t until the emergence of Steve Davis as a multiple WC in around 84/85 when people started to debate whether in fact, Steve had overtaken King Joe as GOAT. Thus, why is Reardon so highly ranked (not that I disagree with his high standing) yet Joe, or Fred, for that matter, is forgotten?

Re: Has Selby surpassed Williams in all-time great list?

Postby The_Abbott

Cazoo wrote:
The_Abbott wrote:No Willo still top for me. Selby has been more lucky


Would you put Selby ahead of Williams if he wins another World Championship?

No. I think he would have to be winning majors for the next 10 years for him to get above the class of 92

Re: Has Selby surpassed Williams in all-time great list?

Postby shanew48

The_Abbott wrote:No Willo still top for me. Selby has been more lucky


How so? I dislike Selby as much as anyone but how has he been luckier?

Note, every time Ronnie or Jimmy refer to someone "playing the game in the right way" they are in effect having a pop at Selby every time as the first thing that comes in to peoples minds is Selby as he doesn't play the game in the right way or sprit, they don't even have to mention his name, it's just implicitly understood what they mean.

Re: Has Selby surpassed Williams in all-time great list?

Postby Granite

William fans are laughable. Selby is the superior player achievement and skill wise. At least Selby can open up a pack of reds. Williams has overachieved with his non existent cue power and break building.

Re: Has Selby surpassed Williams in all-time great list?

Postby Holden Chinaski

Granite wrote:William fans are laughable. Selby is the superior player achievement and skill wise. At least Selby can open up a pack of reds. Williams has overachieved with his non existent cue power and break building.

But on the other hand, Williams never uses gamesmanship. That’s worth something. Selby is a great player, but we all know he’s not against some gamesmanship when he feels like it. Multiple players have said this and we have all seen it. But MJW is respected by the whole tour.