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Re: Judd's really not a threat to Ronnie's records is he?

Postby Holden Chinaski

Ronnie played like a god at times around 2004/2005. It was almost scary. Judd has never impressed me like that.

Judd at his best is a fantastic snooker player. Same as Hendry, Higgins, Davis ... Except he doesn't win on the big stage as much as those guys.

But Ronnie at his best is something special. Something almost insane. He plays with passion. He's battling demons on the table. He's doing stuff that's so creative nobody else would even think of it. And he's doing it all with style. He's almost an artist when he plays like that. You can't put that in statistics.

Ever seen an artist like Picasso paint or draw? How fast they do it, how they look while they do it? How they seem to love and hate it at the same time? How they look like they were born to do it? Ronnie looks exactly the same when he's on fire. Judd at his best is not that. He's just a lad who is very, very talented at playing a game who practices a lot and wants to win a lot of money and be popular.

Re: Judd's really not a threat to Ronnie's records is he?

Postby rekoons

Prop wrote:I’m starting to think that attempting to make this specific to a player’s career peak is bringing far too much subjectivity into it.

It’s a variable that can always be argued to suit one perspective over another. And stats shouldn’t really work like that.


That's exactly why I think it's better (not ideal but better) to just take all of the available data in consideration.

Highs and lows will cancel each other out eventually. and come to think of it, it's actually not bad to take the bad spells into the equation as well isn't it? It's equally important to have a good B, C or whatever game than your A+ game.

Re: Judd's really not a threat to Ronnie's records is he?

Postby badtemperedcyril

The only other person I’d say who has been able to exhibit Ronnie’s mastery is Alex Higgins, though compared with Ronnie he only achieved that form very occasionally. He was too volatile to be in anyway consistent but on those rare occasions when he got it all together it was as if he was at one with himself, his cue, the table and balls. The cue like a magic wand, the balls obeyed - it was like an art form. Jimmy White and Judd Trump are both remarkable potters and have terrific ability to make shots but they don’t flow with poetic genius of a vintage Hurricane or O’Sullivan.

Re: Judd's really not a threat to Ronnie's records is he?

Postby chengdufan

rekoons wrote:So excited for Chengdufan, he is single handedly going to objectively put the GOAT debate to rest once and for all!

Just needs to also crunch Hendry's data as well rofl

Well, I've already done that with the all-time ranking list :-) The definitive answer to the goat question will be revealed during the 2022 World Championship*.

The question here I believe is who is the better break builder, Trump or O'Sullivan. This is an entirely different question altogether, and I think I can get an answer to that soon.

*Kind of

Re: Judd's really not a threat to Ronnie's records is he?

Postby badtemperedcyril

That’s very difficult to answer in stats. Trump is amassing a colossal tally of centuries but his strategy is mainly to bust the pack open all over the place and then proceed to pot them. This has only really become the norm since the introduction of the very light balls and napless cloth. Ronnie’s style of break building is altogether more skilled. He’s adept at picking them off as he needs them, like a craftsman.

Re: Judd's really not a threat to Ronnie's records is he?

Postby Prop

rekoons wrote:
Prop wrote:I’m starting to think that attempting to make this specific to a player’s career peak is bringing far too much subjectivity into it.

It’s a variable that can always be argued to suit one perspective over another. And stats shouldn’t really work like that.


That's exactly why I think it's better (not ideal but better) to just take all of the available data in consideration.

Highs and lows will cancel each other out eventually. and come to think of it, it's actually not bad to take the bad spells into the equation as well isn't it? It's equally important to have a good B, C or whatever game than your A+ game.


Yeah, there’s no perfect solution right now. The main issue is trying to compare a pro career of 29 years to one of 16 years. Any data taken from the former is going to provide a more accurate overall representation than data taken from a period of roughly half that.

Is Judd in a dip of form? Or has he reverted to type?

Re: Judd's really not a threat to Ronnie's records is he?

Postby Prop

I suppose it could be something that gets updated each season. Now that would be interesting. Chengdufan can start plotting the graphs now, and over time we’ll see how they diverge. Do some nice overlays of the plots. Sound good, Chengdufan? <laugh>

Re: Judd's really not a threat to Ronnie's records is he?

Postby Granite

Pink Ball wrote:I'm not convinced the O'Sullivan vintage of 2012-2014 was better than the O'Sullivan of the noughties. I think some of O'Sullivan's achievements in that latter period are skewed by a weaker level of competition. O'Sullivan did regress, but the standard regressed at a quicker pace. The best players were better between 2001 and 2004.

Some of the performances O'Sullivan pulled out at that time were God-like. The English Open final against Kyren Wilson a few years ago aside, I'm not convinced I've seen anything like that from him since. He's more consistent, he's arguably more motivated, but I don't believe at all that he has been as good.


2019 Players Championship final against Robertson was top form I think.

Re: Judd's really not a threat to Ronnie's records is he?

Postby mick745

Some players fade away suddenly, some drop slowly, it was always assumed flair players would drop more suddenly but i dont think there is much evidence for that.

Although very few players actually "retire" as such, there are very few examples of players quitting while still in the top 16, or even top 32. Occasionally with illnesses or injuries.

Re: Judd's really not a threat to Ronnie's records is he?

Postby Prop

Granite wrote:Be interesting to see Selby's longevity, he's at the same place Ronnie was from 2012+, having a similar-ish type of resurgence. Of course Ronnie won a lot more from his late 30s to early 40s


It’d be fascinating to see all the big names plotted on a graph. But obviously breakbuilding isn’t the only factor in greatness. It’s pretty much consensus that Selby’s greatest strengths lie in tactical areas that might not be as easy to represent in numbers (even though he’s a savage scorer himself on his day).

Re: Judd's really not a threat to Ronnie's records is he?

Postby badtemperedcyril

mick745 wrote:Some players fade away suddenly, some drop slowly, it was always assumed flair players would drop more suddenly but i dont think there is much evidence for that.

Although very few players actually "retire" as such, there are very few examples of players quitting while still in the top 16, or even top 32. Occasionally with illnesses or injuries.
The only one I can think of is Griffiths, who retired as soon as he dropped out the top-16.

Re: Judd's really not a threat to Ronnie's records is he?

Postby Andre147

Granite wrote:
Pink Ball wrote:I'm not convinced the O'Sullivan vintage of 2012-2014 was better than the O'Sullivan of the noughties. I think some of O'Sullivan's achievements in that latter period are skewed by a weaker level of competition. O'Sullivan did regress, but the standard regressed at a quicker pace. The best players were better between 2001 and 2004.

Some of the performances O'Sullivan pulled out at that time were God-like. The English Open final against Kyren Wilson a few years ago aside, I'm not convinced I've seen anything like that from him since. He's more consistent, he's arguably more motivated, but I don't believe at all that he has been as good.


2019 Players Championship final against Robertson was top form I think.


2014 CoC Final was also a great display from the Rocket.

Re: Judd's really not a threat to Ronnie's records is he?

Postby shanew48

He will surpass all of Ronnies records apart from TC and WC but they are the most important ones when recognising ATG's

Will Ronnie add to his TC haul this week? I'm not so sure he will, he hasn't actually been playing that well so far and wouldn't be surprised if Wilson knocks him out, it could have been worse for him though if he had made the final and met Selt as life has a way of turning around and biting you doesn't it so after those disrespectful comments the other week you just know that somehow karma would have hit and he would have found a way to sort him out.

I know the sycophants won't have it but Ronnie has genuinely been on the decline since the WC win, fair enough reaching 5 finals is good but losing to Jordan Brown? a 40 year old Ronnie would have rinsed him 9-2, 9-3 I think. Alan Mc was saying the other day that when players reach their mid 40's the concentration that you had in your early 20's just isn't there, you can't even notice it or rectify it, it just happens to everyone.

His game is now so in and out that he is capable of losing to virtually anyone in the top 50 on the tour now on any given day whereas a few years ago you wouldn't even consider it possible would you, it seems like he is making less centurys in general compared to previous seasons, I accept I may be wrong on that point though.

Re: Judd's really not a threat to Ronnie's records is he?

Postby Andre147

Of course Ronnie's game is declining, how could a 46 year old not be?

But he's still good enough to be wining titles, certainly not as consistent as he used to be, but he'll win a couple more, and hopefully one final WC.

Re: Judd's really not a threat to Ronnie's records is he?

Postby shanew48

shanew48 wrote:He will surpass all of Ronnies records apart from TC and WC but they are the most important ones when recognising ATG's

Will Ronnie add to his TC haul this week? I'm not so sure he will, he hasn't actually been playing that well so far and wouldn't be surprised if Wilson knocks him out, it could have been worse for him though if he had made the final and met Selt as life has a way of turning around and biting you doesn't it so after those disrespectful comments the other week you just know that somehow karma would have hit and he would have found a way to sort him out.

I know the sycophants won't have it but Ronnie has genuinely been on the decline since the WC win, fair enough reaching 5 finals is good but losing to Jordan Brown? a 40 year old Ronnie would have rinsed him 9-2, 9-3 I think. Alan Mc was saying the other day that when players reach their mid 40's the concentration that you had in your early 20's just isn't there, you can't even notice it or rectify it, it just happens to everyone.

His game is now so in and out that he is capable of losing to virtually anyone in the top 50 on the tour now on any given day whereas a few years ago you wouldn't even consider it possible would you, it seems like he is making less centurys in general compared to previous seasons, I accept I may be wrong on that point though.


Yep, as predicted, Wilson was just too much for him, Ronnie is always saying that he isn't bothered if he wins or loses so it shouldn't get him too down anyway.

Re: Judd's really not a threat to Ronnie's records is he?

Postby shanew48

With regards to Ronnies comments yesterday stating that he wouldn't allow his son to play snooker, not sure if it got much attention or not but I think sometimes he just says stuff to try and get some attention back on him as in this instance the attention had been more on the younger players at the UK champs so maybe he just was missing attention?

Re: Judd's really not a threat to Ronnie's records is he?

Postby Johnny Bravo

shanew48 wrote:With regards to Ronnies comments yesterday stating that he wouldn't allow his son to play snooker, not sure if it got much attention or not but I think sometimes he just says stuff to try and get some attention back on him as in this instance the attention had been more on the younger players at the UK champs so maybe he just was missing attention?

Nah, it's not attention seeking, he's just honest. The money in snooker is peanuts compared to other sports, and Ronnie is afraid that if his son takes the sport up and ain't among the very best, he will struggle to make ends meat. Whereas in other sports, you can be average and still make enough money to have a good life.

Re: Judd's really not a threat to Ronnie's records is he?

Postby chengdufan

chengdufan wrote:
rekoons wrote:So excited for Chengdufan, he is single handedly going to objectively put the GOAT debate to rest once and for all!

Just needs to also crunch Hendry's data as well rofl

Well, I've already done that with the all-time ranking list :-) The definitive answer to the goat question will be revealed during the 2022 World Championship*.

The question here I believe is who is the better break builder, Trump or O'Sullivan. This is an entirely different question altogether, and I think I can get an answer to that soon.

*Kind of

I've been a bit busy so haven't had chance to look into this until today. I've made some good progress but it's going to be a little more time-consuming than I earlier anticipated. I'll probably need a few weeks to put the data together. I've got a week off work at Christmas-time, so I'll most likely complete this mini-project then.

Re: Judd's really not a threat to Ronnie's records is he?

Postby Prop

chengdufan wrote:
chengdufan wrote:
rekoons wrote:So excited for Chengdufan, he is single handedly going to objectively put the GOAT debate to rest once and for all!

Just needs to also crunch Hendry's data as well rofl

Well, I've already done that with the all-time ranking list :-) The definitive answer to the goat question will be revealed during the 2022 World Championship*.

The question here I believe is who is the better break builder, Trump or O'Sullivan. This is an entirely different question altogether, and I think I can get an answer to that soon.

*Kind of

I've been a bit busy so haven't had chance to look into this until today. I've made some good progress but it's going to be a little more time-consuming than I earlier anticipated. I'll probably need a few weeks to put the data together. I've got a week off work at Christmas-time, so I'll most likely complete this mini-project then.


Good man <ok>

Re: Judd's really not a threat to Ronnie's records is he?

Postby Tiens

Trump really does need to start winning more Triple Crown titles, three just simple isn’t good enough for someone of his talent. I know he’s still relatively young, but just look at what the likes of David, Hendry and O’Sullivan had won by the age of 32.