Post a reply

Robbo vs Selbo - all time list

Postby Johnny Bravo

What does Robbo have to do in order to surpass Selbo on the all time list ?

He will certainly end his career with more tons than Selbo, he's the better potter and breakbuilder.
But that don't mean that much on the big scale.

He currently has 5 Triple crown titles But let's assume he also win the Masters today.
That would put him on 6: 1 WC, 3 UK + 2 Masters.
By comparison to Selbo has 9: 4WC, 2 UK and 3 Masters.

So what does Robbo have to achieve/win in order to pass Selbo. Will 2 extra WC be enough or not ?

Discuss :-)

Re: Robbo vs Selbo - all time list

Postby HustleKing

Tie Selby on 4 WC's and win more other TC's or overtake Selby with 5 WC's.

Neil needs to do this, because the difference between his and Mark's break building is not massive, but the gulf in safety ability between the two players is enormous in Selby's favour.

Re: Robbo vs Selbo - all time list

Postby mick745

I am afraid Robertson's world championship record just isnt good enough currently to be considered in Selby's bracket and that is the measure by which players' careers are ultimately ranked.

Re: Robbo vs Selbo - all time list

Postby Iranu

Juddernaut88 wrote:Makes me absolutely sick that Judd is so far behind both of them.

Why? He’s got what, 6-7 years on them?

As for Robbo, he’s not gonna catch Selby now. Selby will win more and even if he didn’t Robbo’s left himself too much to do.

He’d have to match Selby’s tally, basically. They’ve played in the same era and faced the same competition, which means their achievements should be ‘measured’ equally.

Re: Robbo vs Selbo - all time list

Postby TheRocket

HustleKing wrote:Tie Selby on 4 WC's and win more other TC's or overtake Selby with 5 WC's.

Neil needs to do this, because the difference between his and Mark's break building is not massive, but the gulf in safety ability between the two players is enormous in Selby's favour.


Not so sure about that. Selby of course is the better safety player but the H2H shows me that Robertsons potting and scoring ability seems to cause Selby far more problems than Selbys safety play does with Robbo.


As for Johnnys question, Robertson needs to win at least 3 World titles in total so 2 more but that alone wouldnt be enough. If he is one behind in World titles he needs to be ahead in the other stats. Ranking titles + TC titles that is. Then there would be a debate at least.

Re: Robbo vs Selbo - all time list

Postby Johnny Bravo

TheRocket wrote:
HustleKing wrote:Tie Selby on 4 WC's and win more other TC's or overtake Selby with 5 WC's.

Neil needs to do this, because the difference between his and Mark's break building is not massive, but the gulf in safety ability between the two players is enormous in Selby's favour.


Not so sure about that. Selby of course is the better safety player but the H2H shows me that Robertsons potting and scoring ability seems to cause Selby far more problems than Selbys safety play does with Robbo.


As for Johnnys question, Robertson needs to win at least 3 World titles in total so 2 more but that alone wouldnt be enough. If he is one behind in World titles he needs to be ahead in the other stats. Ranking titles + TC titles that is. Then there would be a debate at least.

:goodpost: :hatoff:

Re: Robbo vs Selbo - all time list

Postby Iranu

TheRocket wrote:
HustleKing wrote:Tie Selby on 4 WC's and win more other TC's or overtake Selby with 5 WC's.

Neil needs to do this, because the difference between his and Mark's break building is not massive, but the gulf in safety ability between the two players is enormous in Selby's favour.


Not so sure about that. Selby of course is the better safety player but the H2H shows me that Robertsons potting and scoring ability seems to cause Selby far more problems than Selbys safety play does with Robbo.


As for Johnnys question, Robertson needs to win at least 3 World titles in total so 2 more but that alone wouldnt be enough. If he is one behind in World titles he needs to be ahead in the other stats. Ranking titles + TC titles that is. Then there would be a debate at least.

H2H doesn’t really matter when discussing who’s higher on the “all time list” though. If Selby matches up badly against Robbo that doesn’t mean he’s not the better player.

Because Robbo and Selby play in the same era, Robbo would need to match his tally of WCs. Which he won’t do.

I don’t even think he’ll get to two.

Re: Robbo vs Selbo - all time list

Postby TheRocket

Iranu wrote:
TheRocket wrote:
HustleKing wrote:Tie Selby on 4 WC's and win more other TC's or overtake Selby with 5 WC's.

Neil needs to do this, because the difference between his and Mark's break building is not massive, but the gulf in safety ability between the two players is enormous in Selby's favour.


Not so sure about that. Selby of course is the better safety player but the H2H shows me that Robertsons potting and scoring ability seems to cause Selby far more problems than Selbys safety play does with Robbo.


As for Johnnys question, Robertson needs to win at least 3 World titles in total so 2 more but that alone wouldnt be enough. If he is one behind in World titles he needs to be ahead in the other stats. Ranking titles + TC titles that is. Then there would be a debate at least.

H2H doesn’t really matter when discussing who’s higher on the “all time list” though. If Selby matches up badly against Robbo that doesn’t mean he’s not the better player.

Because Robbo and Selby play in the same era, Robbo would need to match his tally of WCs. Which he won’t do.

I don’t even think he’ll get to two.


I'm not saying H2H matters.. Unless maybe its like total ownage like 25:1 or something like that. But I've heard a lot of time that people said that Selby superiorty over Robertson in safety play is much greater than Robertsons superiority over Selby in potting and scoring. And I dont think it is like that. Robertson is not Murphy. He is a solid tactical player.

At this stage of their respective careers we can say the sole difference between them is 3 World titles. Every non-WC stat they are pretty much even now but Selby obviously excelled at the Worlds while Robbo never has done so Selby is without any doubt greater and no one could dispute that.

Re: Robbo vs Selbo - all time list

Postby Johnny Bravo

Alex0paul wrote:4 is greater than 1

We all know this. My question was how much and what does he need to win in order to be greater ?

IMO if he gets to 3 WC wins, that along with more tons and more rankers, means they would be pretty even.

In the past few years Selbo hasn't done much throught the season, yet he always seems to do well at the WC.

Re: Robbo vs Selbo - all time list

Postby McManusFan

Johnny Bravo wrote:
Alex0paul wrote:4 is greater than 1

We all know this. My question was how much.


The answer is 3.


(sorry couldn't resist!)

Re: Robbo vs Selbo - all time list

Postby Iranu

Johnny Bravo wrote:IMO if he gets to 3 WC wins, that along with more tons and more rankers, means they would be pretty even.

I don’t think tons really matter, unless he ends up with like 300 more then you could argue it matters a little (but not really). Winning scrappy frames is just as important a skill as making centuries. Not to mention 70s, 80s etc.

Johnny Bravo wrote:In the past few years Selbo hasn't done much throught the season, yet he always seems to do well at the WC.

This isn’t as true as some people think.

Titles between Selby’s third and fourth WC:

Selby:
2017/18 - two (China Open, International Championship)
2018/19 - one (China Championship)
2019/20 - two (English Open, Scottish Open)
2020/21 - two (Scottish Open, European Masters)

Total = 7

Robertson:
2017/18 - one (Scottish Open)
2018/19 - three (Welsh Open, China Open, Riga Masters)
2019/20 - three (World Grand Prix, European Masters, Champion of Champions)
2020/21 - two (Uk Championship, Tour Championship)

Total = 9

So Robbo outperformed him but not by much ( “1/4 of a title” per season) assuming I haven’t missed anything.

How many more non-WC titles do you think would make ip for having only 3 WCs? Probably worth mentioning Robbo has two CoCs which is an invitational but definitely one of the bigger tournaments now.

Re: Robbo vs Selbo - all time list

Postby badtemperedcyril

I look at the greats in pairs…

Ronnie/Hendry at the top
Higgins/Davis tier 2
Joe/Reardon legends of yesteryear
Selby/Williams
Hurricane/Whirlwind
Robbo/Trump

Good news for Robbo that he’s now putting distance between him and his rival and closer to getting in bed with Selby and Willo.

Re: Robbo vs Selbo - all time list

Postby TheRocket

Tier 1: Hendry, O'Sullivan, Davis
Tier 2: J.Higgins, Selby, Williams, Reardon
Tier 3: Trump, Robertson, A.Higgins
Tier 4: Murphy, Ding, Parrott, Ebdon, White

Re: Robbo vs Selbo - all time list

Postby Iranu

Whirlwind above Robbo and Trump is an interesting shout. Any particular reason for that, Cyril?

Re: Robbo vs Selbo - all time list

Postby mick745

TheRocket wrote:Tier 1: Hendry, O'Sullivan, Davis
Tier 2: J.Higgins, Selby, Williams, Reardon
Tier 3: Trump, Robertson, A.Higgins
Tier 4: Murphy, Ding, Parrott, Ebdon, White


Agree with this. Hendry, O'S and Davis are the only players really who can be considered the greatest of all time, i know some would add J.Higgins to tier 1, personally i wouldnt.

Re: Robbo vs Selbo - all time list

Postby TheRocket

mick745 wrote:
TheRocket wrote:Tier 1: Hendry, O'Sullivan, Davis
Tier 2: J.Higgins, Selby, Williams, Reardon
Tier 3: Trump, Robertson, A.Higgins
Tier 4: Murphy, Ding, Parrott, Ebdon, White


Agree with this. Hendry, O'S and Davis are the only players really who can be considered the greatest of all time, i know some would add J.Higgins to tier 1, personally i wouldnt.


I agree. I'd say its a tough one with J.Higgins and he is for sure the strongest player in the Tier 2 group but he just slightly lacks in terms of the TC titles. Which he also admitted. 9 is too low. O'Sullivan won 20, Hendry 18 and Davis 15 so thats a big gap.

If Higgins was to win one more World title though that should be enough to get into Tier 1.

Re: Robbo vs Selbo - all time list

Postby Johnny Bravo

Iranu wrote:How many more non-WC titles do you think would make ip for having only 3 WCs? Probably worth mentioning Robbo has two CoCs which is an invitational but definitely one of the bigger tournaments now.

I've always felt that 1 WC = 1 Masters + 1 UK = 2 UK/Masters = 5 regular rankers = 3 or 4 bigger events like the CoC

Re: Robbo vs Selbo - all time list

Postby badtemperedcyril

Iranu wrote:Whirlwind above Robbo and Trump is an interesting shout. Any particular reason for that, Cyril?

To be fair, Robbo could easily leapfrog White and Alex. Jimmy did reach 5 consecutive World Championship finals though and was a huge figure at the game throughout the 80’s and 90’s. I’m reluctant to push Trump too high until he has the titles to back it up. All the greats admit it’s the TC titles that count at the end of one’s career and he’s still only won 3 TC events and only reached 2 finals at the Crucible. I know you can argue Robbo has only reached one WC final but he has won double the number of TC’s Trump has.

Re: Robbo vs Selbo - all time list

Postby Prop

Johnny Bravo wrote:
Iranu wrote:How many more non-WC titles do you think would make ip for having only 3 WCs? Probably worth mentioning Robbo has two CoCs which is an invitational but definitely one of the bigger tournaments now.

I've always felt that 1 WC = 1 Masters + 1 UK = 2 UK/Masters = 5 regular rankers = 3 or 4 bigger events like the CoC


Potential broadcasting changes could affect the way the TCs are presented, and therefore the weight they hold in terms of merit, in the future. If, for example, BBC end their contract after 2027 (see LDS’s thread re BBC) and ITV pick things up, then could the likes of the Tour Championship eventually become known as a ‘major’? One of the new ‘Big Four’? If so, your equation could gradually adapt as time goes on.

Re: Robbo vs Selbo - all time list

Postby badtemperedcyril

TheRocket wrote:Tier 1: Hendry, O'Sullivan, Davis
Tier 2: J.Higgins, Selby, Williams, Reardon
Tier 3: Trump, Robertson, A.Higgins
Tier 4: Murphy, Ding, Parrott, Ebdon, White

I like this but I’d make a couple of observations. Interesting that you include Reardon yet Spencer is nowhere to be seen. Although Ray had 6 WC to Spencer’s 3, there was very little between them from 1965 and throughout the 70’s. Thorburn/Griffiths could also feature in your Tier 4.