Iranu wrote:TheRocket wrote:Would you guys actually put Selby ahead of Higgins in the All-Time Great list if he was to win a 5th World title? Or would he need to win more titles? Whether that might be more Worlds or other titles.
He has won 4 Worlds and 9 TC titles exactly like Higgins which already is impressive. We all know that prime Higgins is the superior player but it doesnt show itself in the raw numbers. Mainly because Higgins lost too many finals recently.
No.
Ronnie, Hendry, Davis and Higgins (in that order, in my opinion) are the Big Four as far as history goes - or at least modern professional history. I don’t think one world title automatically overcomes 10 other ranking titles.
If Higgins is the superior player, he’s the superior player.
As things stand, I’m still not fully convinced in putting Selby above Mark Williams.
Agree I still have Willo ahead and I think most fans and experts agree, during the 2018 final when Angles etc put together a GOAT list at a cafe they did put Willo just ahead of Selby.
It's hard to debate players who are somewhat different in age with primes not coinciding, Selby's maiden title was a grindfest as well as 2017, 2016 and 21 Ding & Murphy good as they are they aren't the most elite, all of his 1 table matches where he won were close going to at least 14 for the loser. Don't get me wrong still a feat to win 4 but he's yet to do so comfortably.
If talking about players at their best Selby isn't that high up I'd put Robbo even Murphy above him.
Iranu wrote:TheRocket wrote:Ability/standardwise Higgins definitely is part of the Big4 but he lacks in the raw numbers for me. He is behind the other three by some margin and that speaks against him. Have to say although I'm definitely not a Higgins fan I probably wouldnt mind to see him lifting another World title before he retires. It would be fairer reflection of his ability.
Yep but that’s compared to the three best players ever.
Given the era he competed in during his prime (as much as I hate those discussions) I don’t think Selby winning an extra WC automatically puts him above Higgins.
In terms of pure numbers, Selby’s lagging way behind in overall titles especially considering how many tournaments there have been during his prime years compared to Higgins’.
Yes Selby has played almost as many matches and tournaments as Ronnie already despite their 7.5yrs age gap. He has far less to show for it too in every department, fool's errand to elevate him as a peer to the class of 92, he'd have won little if he was part of that class, all his world title success came when that fabled class reached late 30s to past 40, I know people think they're getting better with age but I think it's debatable, 1 hand they perhaps are better at the matchplay with experience but otherhand their concentration dips more with age, more easy balls missed and stamina becomes more a problem, yes not for Ronnie but he's the exception though he certainly makes more silly misses with age.
Selby's torturous play will be harder to maintain with age & Yan beating him in their 85m tussle maybe a bad omen for him if he continues to play this way.
Yes when playing well he scores very well, he has had some session to spares in the crucible to reflect that. If that was much more of his game than the 1hr+ frames he'd have less critics, less wins? Maybe. Opposite of him is Alex Higgins and Jimmy White, had they been more of matchplayers they'd have won more.
rekoons wrote:
the clash of styles is interesting, it would be boring if they were all ronnies or selbies.
I agree emphatically with the 2nd part I'd watch golf over snooker if everyone was Selbore and his 2hr frames! Impossible for the entire WST to be all Ronnies! They would have to revise the entire game, make it a 120x60ft table! That would be damn amazing though if everyone were exciting, flamboyant people's champion players and I much prefer games to be quick so frames under 20m usually, okay the odd frames that go into long safety battles, black respots are so dramatic, I do like safety battles when done well (So NOT Ebdon/Selby pace but like Ronnie who is quick and tries to play positive safeties to keep the game going rather than containing play that is Selby's trademark)
I'm not a Higgins fan but compared to Selby I would say Higgins is better to watch, yes he's also very tactical but he is more attacking and positive than Selby, so I've decided at last of my 2 least liked players I put Higgins over Selby. So if they ever play each other again I'd root for Higgins.
As for Higgins winning 5 WCs, I liked Ronnie having 5 as no one ended on 5 so he was unique. I know too Higgins would love his 5th title far more than Ronnie did, making his to date last final narrowly beating David Gilbert (Who was robbed by a kick) he was in tears, when Ronnie made his first final since 2014 in that most exciting comeback vs Selby he was banging on about his cue action
, I thought he'd be a bit less blase about it, Selby's disrespectful comment and Ronnie's cue action rant did dampen one of the most exciting finales to a match ever seen for sure lol. (And wow what a shame it had no crowd to see it, both SFs of 2020)
I'd want Willo to win at least as many as Selby, heck he needs to win 1 more UK or Masters at least tie Selby for TCs. Higgins is arguably below Selby in TCs sorry to say as Masters as regarded as the greatest win after WCs. (Says a lot about Selby's ability, there's only Ronnie and Hendry who have been Masters champions more than 3x, arguably the toughest tournament to win though it's only 4 matches)
The class of 99 is very far from 92 in their silverware, Robbo and Murphy should be multi world champions.
As for Ronnie being far more successful than his peers I'd say it's more he's retained and some ways improved on his prime, mentally definitely and matchplay. Higgins and Willo definitely haven't kept up with him, back in their youth they were comparable in wins, Ronnie may have been the last to complete the triple crown but he kept winning more as did Higgins, Willo dropped behind. From 2011 though Higgins has not won a TC despite 3 world finals and a Masters final, Willo won the 2018 WC and narrowly missed out on this year's final robbing us of Ronnie vs Willo at the Crucible final but otherwise hasn't been a big factor in TCs, Ronnie has won a TC every year from 2012-20 & if not for 2020-21 which was a half baked season for him he'd have an 11season streak of TCs! So his lean years crucible wise from 2015-19 Higgins made 3 finals, Willo won 1 but otherwise they've not performed vs him in the majors.
He was on 11 TCs when John won his last so was comparable 11yrs ago but I put it down more to him being more consistent thanks to Steve Peters and aging better physically and mentally rather than he's reached some next level in snooker Willo and Higgins haven't, at their best they're similar and any one of them would have had Hendry like dominance if the other 2 didn't exist.