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Re: The most impressive World Championship wins

Postby Granite

Top of my head

In terms of opposition in no order:

Selby 2014
Hendry 1999
O'Sullivan 2020
Brecel 2023
Higgins 2011
Bingham 2015

In terms of level of play in no order:

Selby 2017
Hendry 1993
O'Sullivan 2004, 2008, 2012, 2022
Trump 2019
Higgins 1998
Williams 2003

Outlier performance:

O'Sullivan 2013

Re: The most impressive World Championship wins

Postby Holden Chinaski

Granite wrote:Top of my head

In terms of opposition in no order:

Selby 2014

Obviously Ronnie and Robbo are tough (although Robbo at The Crucible is questionable), but Michael White and a 40+ year old Alan McManus are not that impressive to be honest.

Re: The most impressive World Championship wins

Postby Granite

Holden Chinaski wrote:
Granite wrote:Top of my head

In terms of opposition in no order:

Selby 2014

Obviously Ronnie and Robbo are tough (although Robbo at The Crucible is questionable), but Michael White and a 40+ year old Alan McManus are not that impressive to be honest.


Brecel played a 40 year old Ricky Walden, what's your point?

Re: The most impressive World Championship wins

Postby RunningSide

A very match fit Walden was the draw top 16 all wanted to avoid, he scored heavily in qualifying and very experienced at crucible. Probably taken 4 or 5 of seeds.

Re: The most impressive World Championship wins

Postby Holden Chinaski

Granite wrote:
Holden Chinaski wrote:
Granite wrote:Top of my head

In terms of opposition in no order:

Selby 2014

Obviously Ronnie and Robbo are tough (although Robbo at The Crucible is questionable), but Michael White and a 40+ year old Alan McManus are not that impressive to be honest.


Brecel played a 40 year old Ricky Walden, what's your point?

I'm saying Ricky Walden is a tougher opponent than Alan McManus and Michael White. Also Si (who was the player of the Championship at the moment and looked like winning the title) is more impressive than Ali Carter, and Mark Selby is a more impressive opponent than Robbo at the Crucible. So I 'm not that impressed with Selby's run in 2014 compared to Luca's run.

Re: The most impressive World Championship wins

Postby Holden Chinaski

RunningSide wrote:A very match fit Walden was the draw top 16 all wanted to avoid, he scored heavily in qualifying and very experienced at crucible. Probably taken 4 or 5 of seeds.

Indeed. He has 3 ranking titles as well.

Re: The most impressive World Championship wins

Postby Holden Chinaski

Iranu wrote:
Holden Chinaski wrote:[
I'm saying Ricky Walden is a tougher opponent than Alan McManus

Is he buck

Ricky Walden has beaten Mark Selby 8 times. McManus has beaten Selby 1 time.

Ricky Walden has beaten Luca 3 times. McManus has beaten Luca 0 times, but lost to Luca 3 times.

McManus has 2 ranking titles. His last ranking win was in 1996.
Walden has 3 ranking titles. His last ranking win was in 2014.
Walden has made 345 century breaks. McManus has made 230.

Re: The most impressive World Championship wins

Postby Iranu

Holden Chinaski wrote:
Iranu wrote:
Holden Chinaski wrote:[
I'm saying Ricky Walden is a tougher opponent than Alan McManus

Is he buck

Ricky Walden has beaten Mark Selby 8 times. McManus has beaten Selby 1 time.

Ricky Walden has beaten Luca 3 times. McManus has beaten Luca 0 times, but lost to Luca 3 times.

McManus has 2 ranking titles. His last ranking win was in 1996.
Walden has 3 ranking titles. His last ranking win was in 2014.
Walden has made 345 century breaks. McManus has made 230.

I can counter every single one of those arguments with three simple words:

McManus is older.

You expect an Alan McManus who is way past his prime to have a similar or better record than Ricky Walden against two much younger players?

You’ve just given the match stats of a 52 year-old vs a 28 year-old for buck’s sake. No rubbish Luca has a good record against him, Jesus Christ.

As for ranking titles you’re conveniently ignoring that a) there are far more tournaments nowadays and b) Alan McManus has won the Masters (beating Stephen Hendry who was on a five-year winning streak) - a tournament in which Ricky Walden has appeared in only five times with a grand total of... one match victory.

Feel free to cherry pick more head to heads though.

Re: The most impressive World Championship wins

Postby Holden Chinaski

Iranu wrote:
Holden Chinaski wrote:
Iranu wrote:
Holden Chinaski wrote:[
I'm saying Ricky Walden is a tougher opponent than Alan McManus

Is he buck

Ricky Walden has beaten Mark Selby 8 times. McManus has beaten Selby 1 time.

Ricky Walden has beaten Luca 3 times. McManus has beaten Luca 0 times, but lost to Luca 3 times.

McManus has 2 ranking titles. His last ranking win was in 1996.
Walden has 3 ranking titles. His last ranking win was in 2014.
Walden has made 345 century breaks. McManus has made 230.

I can counter every single one of those arguments with three simple words:

McManus is older.

You expect an Alan McManus who is way past his prime to have a similar or better record than Ricky Walden against two much younger players?

You’ve just given the match stats of a 52 year-old vs a 28 year-old for buck’s sake. No rubbish Luca has a good record against him, Jesus Christ.

As for ranking titles you’re conveniently ignoring that a) there are far more tournaments nowadays and b) Alan McManus has won the Masters (beating Stephen Hendry who was on a five-year winning streak) - a tournament in which Ricky Walden has appeared in only five times with a grand total of... one match victory.

Feel free to cherry pick more head to heads though.

McManus was good in the nineties. But we’re talking about 2014. I think he’s a better draw than Walden then.

Re: The most impressive World Championship wins

Postby SnookerFan

I think Holden's point is that Walden was a tougher draw in 2014 than McManus was.

We're not talking about who is a better player over all, or who has the better career.

I could say that Neil Robertson had a hugely tough quarter-final in 2010, because he beat a Six-Time World Champion, and somebody who is considered one of the greatest of all time. Those facts are all true, but doesn't take into account that Steve Davis was 20 years past his best, and hadn't won a tournament since 1997. Davis must've been playing well to the quarters, and you can only beat what is put in front of you. But you can hardly say that beating Steve Davis in 2010 is the same thing as beating him in 1988.

If we're talking about who has the most impressive run at a Crucible, it's only pertinent to talk about how tough their opponents were at the time they played them.

Re: The most impressive World Championship wins

Postby Juddernaut88

SnookerFan wrote:I think Holden's point is that Walden was a tougher draw in 2014 than McManus was.

We're not talking about who is a better player over all, or who has the better career.

I could say that Neil Robertson had a hugely tough quarter-final in 2010, because he beat a Six-Time World Champion, and somebody who is considered one of the greatest of all time. Those facts are all true, but doesn't take into account that Steve Davis was 20 years past his best, and hadn't won a tournament since 1997. Davis must've been playing well to the quarters, and you can only beat what is put in front of you. But you can hardly say that beating Steve Davis in 2010 is the same thing as beating him in 1988.

If we're talking about who has the most impressive run at a Crucible, it's only pertinent to talk about how tough their opponents were at the time they played them.


:goodpost:

Re: The most impressive World Championship wins

Postby Iranu

SnookerFan wrote:I think Holden's point is that Walden was a tougher draw in 2014 than McManus was.

We're not talking about who is a better player over all, or who has the better career.

I could say that Neil Robertson had a hugely tough quarter-final in 2010, because he beat a Six-Time World Champion, and somebody who is considered one of the greatest of all time. Those facts are all true, but doesn't take into account that Steve Davis was 20 years past his best, and hadn't won a tournament since 1997. Davis must've been playing well to the quarters, and you can only beat what is put in front of you. But you can hardly say that beating Steve Davis in 2010 is the same thing as beating him in 1988.

If we're talking about who has the most impressive run at a Crucible, it's only pertinent to talk about how tough their opponents were at the time they played them.

I mean yeah fine but a) that’s not what he initially said, he said Walden is a tougher draw than McManus and b) I don’t think comparing records with players that Angles is either 10 or 25 years older than makes sense in supporting that.

I still don’t necessarily agree with the premise as you put it. Their records in the respective seasons were similar and Angles had a better recent and overall Crucible record and reached another semi a couple of years later (let’s see if Walden can do the same).

Then again I don’t think beating Si in a semi final is more impressive than beating Carter either, so what the hell do I know.

Re: The most impressive World Championship wins

Postby SnookerFan

Iranu wrote:
SnookerFan wrote:I think Holden's point is that Walden was a tougher draw in 2014 than McManus was.

We're not talking about who is a better player over all, or who has the better career.

I could say that Neil Robertson had a hugely tough quarter-final in 2010, because he beat a Six-Time World Champion, and somebody who is considered one of the greatest of all time. Those facts are all true, but doesn't take into account that Steve Davis was 20 years past his best, and hadn't won a tournament since 1997. Davis must've been playing well to the quarters, and you can only beat what is put in front of you. But you can hardly say that beating Steve Davis in 2010 is the same thing as beating him in 1988.

If we're talking about who has the most impressive run at a Crucible, it's only pertinent to talk about how tough their opponents were at the time they played them.

I mean yeah fine but a) that’s not what he initially said, he said Walden is a tougher draw than McManus and b) I don’t think comparing records with players that Angles is either 10 or 25 years older than makes sense in supporting that.

I still don’t necessarily agree with the premise as you put it. Their records in the respective seasons were similar and Angles had a better recent and overall Crucible record and reached another semi a couple of years later (let’s see if Walden can do the same).

Then again I don’t think beating Si in a semi final is more impressive than beating Carter either, so what the hell do I know.



It depends on what impresses you, I suppose.

Si had done really well at The Crucible that year, and had been playing superbly. Carter hadn't.

Having said that, Si is young and inexperienced at that level. So you could argue that playing in a match that could get him into a final on his first go was a lot of pressure that Carter might not have felt. And if it hadn't have gotten to him then, it probably would've done in the final. I guess Brecel had never gotten to the Semi-Finals either, or even past the first round. So you have to take that into account, as much as who his opponents were.

Re: The most impressive World Championship wins

Postby Holden Chinaski

SnookerFan wrote:I think Holden's point is that Walden was a tougher draw in 2014 than McManus was.

We're not talking about who is a better player over all, or who has the better career.

(...) you can hardly say that beating Steve Davis in 2010 is the same thing as beating him in 1988.

If we're talking about who has the most impressive run at a Crucible, it's only pertinent to talk about how tough their opponents were at the time they played them.

Exactly!

Re: The most impressive World Championship wins

Postby Holden Chinaski

I think Luca's run was great because he just about proved everything he could. He proved he could beat the GOAT at the Crucible. He proved he could beat the most experienced players who are very succesful at the Crucible (MJW, Ronnie, Selby). He proved he could beat attacking players (MJW, Ronnie, Si) and he proved he could beat one of the best tacticians and grinders ever in a World final.

But during the World championship the player everybody was talking about was Si. He was the revelation. Si had beaten Murphy, Milkins, and McGill. He was a young guy playing fantastic attacking snooker and people were saying it looked like he had a chance to become the first Chinese World Champion.

Luca had already proven he could beat older and much more experienced players when he beat Walden, MJW, and Ronnie. But by beating Si he also showed he could beat a younger player who was on fire and unpredictable. Had Luca not played Si, if Si had lost to someone else, I think a lot of people would have wondered if Luca would have been able to beat Si, because they are both young and play a similar style.

In the end, Luca beat the biggest tournament favourites (Selby and Ronnie), and he also beat the biggest surprise of the tournament (Si Jiahui).

Re: The most impressive World Championship wins

Postby Iranu

I think you’re giving a pretty generous reading of Si to be honest.

Every round, most people were expecting his run to come to an end. He was a young, inexperienced debutant with exactly the type of game Luca likes to play against, playing for a chance to reach a world final. I think he was pretty much the ideal semi final opponent for Luca - outside of the way he’d been playing, obviously. He was always more likely to come unstuck than to win it. Of course you could reverse that and say Luca was one of the best opponents that Si could have hoped for, too.

I agree that Luca’s run was more impressive than Selby’s overall, though. Just not so much with some of the individual matches.

Re: The most impressive World Championship wins

Postby SnookerFan

Iranu wrote:I think you’re giving a pretty generous reading of Si to be honest.

Every round, most people were expecting his run to come to an end. He was a young, inexperienced debutant with exactly the type of game Luca likes to play against, playing for a chance to reach a world final. I think he was pretty much the ideal semi final opponent for Luca - outside of the way he’d been playing, obviously. He was always more likely to come unstuck than to win it. Of course you could reverse that and say Luca was one of the best opponents that Si could have hoped for, too.

I agree that Luca’s run was more impressive than Selby’s overall, though. Just not so much with some of the individual matches.


The bolded is kind of my reading of the situation too.

Re: The most impressive World Championship wins

Postby Holden Chinaski

Prop wrote:Technically speaking, Si is ridiculously good.


Dan-cat wrote:Si is a machine.


Womble wrote:I had no idea how good Si Jiahui was. Along with a lot of other people, I suppose. :shock:


Wildey wrote:This is very similar to His Mentor in 2005 Shaun Murphy


he came from nowhere to win it


Alex0paul wrote:Your Champion; Si Jiahui


Andre147 wrote:Luca will have his work cut out here.

Wild made a good comparison... it will be like playing Xintong at the UK Final and he had no answers. We shall see here.


Pink Ball wrote:Huge amount of work to do, but Si Jiahui has given himself a chance of playing in the world final. This was the obvious danger session for him and he has passed with flying colours.

Re: The most impressive World Championship wins

Postby Holden Chinaski

Iranu wrote:That praise is so effusive precisely because he was defying expectations.

Yes and that's why Luca's run was so impressive. He beat the big favourites AND he beat THE player who was defying all expectations.

Re: The most impressive World Championship wins

Postby Iranu

Holden Chinaski wrote:
Iranu wrote:That praise is so effusive precisely because he was defying expectations.

Yes and that's why Luca's run was so impressive. He beat the big favourites AND he beat THE player who was defying all expectations.

To me the only thing that made that win really impressive is the comeback

Re: The most impressive World Championship wins

Postby McManusFan

Dan-cat wrote:It was strange. Si was playing some of the best snooker I've seen to get to 14, and then... he just stopped.


He was flakey in the McGill match too. But managed to turn it on in the end.


   

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