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Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Johnny Bravo

Holden Chinaski wrote:We've discussed this before, JB, but I really think you underestimate peak Hendry. He was a beast in his prime.

He was a beast in terms of potting and breakbuilding, the other aspects of his game were average at best.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby badtemperedcyril

1 R O'Sullivan
2 S Hendry
3 S Davis
4 J Higgins
5 J Davis
6 M Williams
7 R Reardon
8 M Selby
9 J White
10 A Higgins

Ranking the next few is more difficult but I'd go: F Davis, N Robertson, J Trump, J Spencer, J Pulman, J Parrott, P Ebdon, C Thorburn, D Junhui, T Griffiths.

I think its important to appreciate a player can only be the best in his respective era and obviously the later a player comes along (in the snooker timeline) the more advantage he has from having history to learn from. It is for that reason that I always reserve a spot for Joe in my Top 10, the fact he had to learn all the technique, the shots, the strategy all himself.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Ck147

If you don't have Robertson in your top 10, you're either biased or having a major malfunction

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby badtemperedcyril

I would argue that the period 46 to 57 was a higher standard among the top professionals than during the 70’s. The 1970’s players, mostly overspill from the 60’s amateur ranks, were fine potters but the masters like Joe and Fred, Pulman, Donaldson, Lindrum etc possessed a far great control of the cue ball, perhaps due to their billiards grounding. Thus, if Reardon is given a top 10 spot, which I don’t disagree with, then so should Joe. What he achieved in his era and given that he is the player who single handedly developed modern snooker as we know it, surely he’d have more than had the technical nous and ability to have adapted to at least the 80’s standard. His attacking approach would very likely have exceeded standard of the 80’s players.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby badtemperedcyril

I would argue that the period 46 to 57 was a higher standard among the top professionals than during the 70’s. The 1970’s players, mostly overspill from the 60’s amateur ranks, were fine potters but the masters like Joe and Fred, Pulman, Donaldson, Lindrum etc possessed a far great control of the cue ball, perhaps due to their billiards grounding. Thus, if Reardon is given a top 10 spot, which I don’t disagree with, then so should Joe. What he achieved in his era and given that he is the player who single handedly developed modern snooker as we know it, surely he’d have more than had the technical nous and ability to have adapted to at least the 80’s standard. His attacking approach would very likely have exceeded standard of the 80’s players.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby badtemperedcyril

I would argue that the period 46 to 57 was a higher standard among the top professionals than during the 70’s. The 1970’s players, mostly overspill from the 60’s amateur ranks, were fine potters but the masters like Joe and Fred, Pulman, Donaldson, Lindrum etc possessed a far great control of the cue ball, perhaps due to their billiards grounding. Thus, if Reardon is given a top 10 spot, which I don’t disagree with, then so should Joe. What he achieved in his era and given that he is the player who single handedly developed modern snooker as we know it, surely he’d have more than had the technical nous and ability to have adapted to at least the 80’s standard. His attacking approach would very likely have exceeded standard of the 80’s players.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Ck147

I think you are having a major malfunction, 3 identical posts...lol. BTW, my Robbo top 10 post wasn't specifically directed at you, it was more a general comment. I know I'm biased but lots of people including guys on the TV forget how good Robbo actually is and what he has accomplished, even if he does spill coffee down himself, play pac-man all night, or end up at the wrong venue! Still top 10 :)

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby badtemperedcyril

I was using my phone and I find it's not so compatible as a computer!

People tend to talk about the Class of 92, almost like an obsession. You feel that Robbo kind of gets lost in their shadows. You are right though, he was a heavy weight of the game, Number 1 and he's got a huge haul of ranking event wins. It remains to be seen whether he can hang around in to his mid-40's like those three have. He can play just as well as ever in spells but he's not the great match player her once was, not when up against Selby or Ronnie. Somewhat like Griffiths, it was as if by winning the world championship he lost a bit of that hardness.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby rekoons

Ck147 wrote:I know I'm biased but lots of people including guys on the TV forget how good Robbo actually is and what he has accomplished, even if he does spill coffee down himself, play pac-man all night, or end up at the wrong venue! Still top 10 :)


I rate Robertson very highly too.
Problem is his consistency... when he’s on, his superb to watch.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Cloud Strife

rekoons wrote:
Ck147 wrote:I know I'm biased but lots of people including guys on the TV forget how good Robbo actually is and what he has accomplished, even if he does spill coffee down himself, play pac-man all night, or end up at the wrong venue! Still top 10 :)


I rate Robertson very highly too.
Problem is his consistency... when he’s on, his superb to watch.


It means you are flying in the clouds, walking on water etc.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Pink Ball

The top ten best/greatest snooker players of all time. Official.

1. Ronnie O'Sullivan
2. Stephen Hendry
3. John Higgins
4. Steve Davis
5. Mark Williams
6. Ray Reardon
7. Mark Selby
8. Neil Robertson
9. Judd Trump
10. Alex Higgins
11. Ding Junhui
12. Peter Ebdon
13. Jimmy White
14. John Parrott
15. John Spencer
16. Shaun Murphy
17. Ken Doherty
18. Cliff Thorburn
19. Terry Griffiths
20. Stuart Bingham

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Iranu

Something I’d like clarification on, Pink, if you don’t mind:

Why do you have Ebdon above White but not Parrott or Murphy?

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Pink Ball

Iranu wrote:Something I’d like clarification on, Pink, if you don’t mind:

Why do you have Ebdon above White but not Parrott or Murphy?

Ebdon's peak coincided with the toughest era in snooker. Parrott and Murphy's did not. Despite that, Ebdon has won as many ranking titles as Parrott and Murphy. Certainly a better player than both of them, and marginally better than White.

Parrott won less, if only slightly, than White. Yes, he did win the World Championship, but that's not the be all and end all. Taking his six finals and 10 ranking titles into account, I'm comfortable with White being considered (much, much) better than his zero world titles suggest, just as I'm comfortable in saying that Joe Johnson and Dennis Taylor were not as good as their one world title suggests.

That's not the same thing, by the way, as saying they didn't deserve their world titles. They both did, particularly Joe Johnson, who played out of his bloody skin to win in 1986.

Murphy, I think, would have to get to about 12 ranking titles to overtake White for me. He can do it, but it's 50-50 for me. For the reasons I mentioned above, he doesn't get the pass that I gave Ebdon, and I'm 100% comfortable with that decision.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Ck147

Pink Ball wrote:The top ten best/greatest snooker players of all time. Official.

1. Ronnie O'Sullivan
2. Stephen Hendry
3. John Higgins
4. Steve Davis
5. Mark Williams
6. Ray Reardon
7. Mark Selby
8. Neil Robertson
9. Judd Trump
10. Alex Higgins
11. Ding Junhui
12. Peter Ebdon
13. Jimmy White
14. John Parrott
15. John Spencer
16. Shaun Murphy
17. Ken Doherty
18. Cliff Thorburn
19. Terry Griffiths
20. Stuart Bingham

Only a cretin would argue with this list

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Holden Chinaski

Ck147 wrote:
Pink Ball wrote:The top ten best/greatest snooker players of all time. Official.

1. Ronnie O'Sullivan
2. Stephen Hendry
3. John Higgins
4. Steve Davis
5. Mark Williams
6. Ray Reardon
7. Mark Selby
8. Neil Robertson
9. Judd Trump
10. Alex Higgins
11. Ding Junhui
12. Peter Ebdon
13. Jimmy White
14. John Parrott
15. John Spencer
16. Shaun Murphy
17. Ken Doherty
18. Cliff Thorburn
19. Terry Griffiths
20. Stuart Bingham

Only a cretin would argue with this list

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Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Johnny Bravo

Pink Ball wrote:The official top 10 is as follows:
1. Ronnie O'Sullivan
2. Stephen Hendry
3. John Higgins
4. Steve Davis
5. Mark Williams
6. Ray Reardon
7. Mark Selby
8. Neil Robertson
9. Judd Trump
10. Alex Higgins

Trump will probably overtake Robertson this season.

In a few years, Trump will probably behind just ROS, Hendry, Higgins and Davis.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Johnny Bravo

Pink Ball wrote:The top ten best/greatest snooker players of all time. Official.

1. Ronnie O'Sullivan
2. Stephen Hendry
3. John Higgins
4. Steve Davis
5. Mark Williams
6. Ray Reardon
7. Mark Selby
8. Neil Robertson
9. Judd Trump
10. Alex Higgins
11. Ding Junhui
12. Peter Ebdon
13. Jimmy White
14. John Parrott
15. John Spencer
16. Shaun Murphy
17. Ken Doherty
18. Cliff Thorburn
19. Terry Griffiths
20. Stuart Bingham


Jimmy at 13 ?!?? This is not a good list. Ding is not greater than Jimmy.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Iranu

Johnny Bravo wrote:
Pink Ball wrote:The official top 10 is as follows:
1. Ronnie O'Sullivan
2. Stephen Hendry
3. John Higgins
4. Steve Davis
5. Mark Williams
6. Ray Reardon
7. Mark Selby
8. Neil Robertson
9. Judd Trump
10. Alex Higgins

Trump will probably overtake Robertson this season.

In a few years, Trump will probably behind just ROS, Hendry, Higgins and Davis.

Judd has a LOT of work to do to overtake MJW, Reardon and Selby. Needs to start performing better in the majors, Worlds particularly if he’s to do that in just a few years.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Johnny Bravo

Iranu wrote:
Johnny Bravo wrote:
Pink Ball wrote:The official top 10 is as follows:
1. Ronnie O'Sullivan
2. Stephen Hendry
3. John Higgins
4. Steve Davis
5. Mark Williams
6. Ray Reardon
7. Mark Selby
8. Neil Robertson
9. Judd Trump
10. Alex Higgins

Trump will probably overtake Robertson this season.

In a few years, Trump will probably behind just ROS, Hendry, Higgins and Davis.

Judd has a LOT of work to do to overtake MJW, Reardon and Selby. Needs to start performing better in the majors, Worlds particularly if he’s to do that in just a few years.

He will easily overtake their ranking tally and he will probably win at least 2 WCs in the next 5 years.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Iranu

Johnny Bravo wrote:He will easily overtake their ranking tally and he will probably win at least 2 WCs in the next 5 years.

Yeah he’ll definitely have way more rankers than them, that goes without saying. Whether he’ll win the worlds twice more in 5 years is less likely. One is probable but it depends when he wins that.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby TheRocket

Trump should win a big amount of rankers, maybe the most , surpassing ROS but at the same time his major tally will probably be nowhere near as impressive as Ronnies or Hendrys.

His aim should be to land somewhere in the Higgins,Selby,Williams range in terms of World,UK,Masters which is already a big challenge. With his additional ranking titles he has good arguments on his side why he is greater than them.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Johnny Bravo

TheRocket wrote:Trump should win a big amount of rankers, maybe the most , surpassing ROS but at the same time his major tally will probably be nowhere near as impressive as Ronnies or Hendrys.

His aim should be to land somewhere in the Higgins,Selby,Williams range in terms of World,UK,Masters which is already a big challenge. With his additional ranking titles he has good arguments on his side why he is greater than them.

:spot on:

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Johnny Bravo

Iranu wrote:
Johnny Bravo wrote:He will easily overtake their ranking tally and he will probably win at least 2 WCs in the next 5 years.

Yeah he’ll definitely have way more rankers than them, that goes without saying. Whether he’ll win the worlds twice more in 5 years is less likely. One is probable but it depends when he wins that.

One WC is more than doable.
The likes of ROS Willo and Higgins are getting older by the moment, Robbo hasn't done particularly well at the WC for whatever reason (which is weird given how good he is), Selbo is declining as he ages cause he ain't that talented (and Judd mops the floor with him anyway), Ding no longer has the desire to fight, and Kyren simply ain't as good (as Judd).
With all that in mind, 2 WCs are also very doable.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Iranu

TheRocket wrote:Trump should win a big amount of rankers, maybe the most , surpassing ROS but at the same time his major tally will probably be nowhere near as impressive as Ronnies or Hendrys.

His aim should be to land somewhere in the Higgins,Selby,Williams range in terms of World,UK,Masters which is already a big challenge. With his additional ranking titles he has good arguments on his side why he is greater than them.

I agree with you except I think he should be aiming to get up to Ronnie, Hendry, Davis levels. I don’t necessarily think he’ll get there but if he wants to be the best he should aim for the best.

He’s so far ahead of everyone except Robbo and Ronnie at the moment and they’re both significantly older than him. Unless Ding, Allen and Kyren up their game it will take a significant new talent to pose him a viable threat. Or at least it should.

Although having said that, by the time he retires, I wouldn’t be surprised if there were five majors rather than three and I don’t know how relevant the TC will be by then.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Iranu

Johnny Bravo wrote:
Iranu wrote:
Johnny Bravo wrote:He will easily overtake their ranking tally and he will probably win at least 2 WCs in the next 5 years.

Yeah he’ll definitely have way more rankers than them, that goes without saying. Whether he’ll win the worlds twice more in 5 years is less likely. One is probable but it depends when he wins that.

One WC is more than doable.
The likes of ROS Willo and Higgins are getting older by the moment, Robbo hasn't done particularly well at the WC for whatever reason (which is weird given how good he is), Selbo is declining as he ages cause he ain't that talented (and Judd mops the floor with him anyway), Ding no longer has the desire to fight, and Kyren simply ain't as good (as Judd).
With all that in mind, 2 WCs are also very doable.

Yeah I agree with you on all this.

Although, outside of a 4-5 month period last year, Judd’s major record isn’t that strong, he’ll need to improve a lot in that regard to be winning two WCs and other majors in five years. Even in his most consistent season ever last season he did poorly in them.

(To be fair though Covid halted his momentum before the Worlds so I don’t read much into that performance.)

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Johnny Bravo

GOAT list:
(based on achievements+peak form+impact on the sport)

1. Ronnie O'Sullivan
2. Stephen Hendry
3. Steve Davis
4. John Higgins
5. Ray Reardon
6. Mark Williams
7. Mark Selby
8. Alex Higgins
9. Neil Robertson
10. Judd Trump

BOAT list:
(based on peak form only)

1. Ronnie O'Sullivan
2. Judd Trump
3. Stephen Hendry
4. Neil Robertson
5. Ding Junhui
6. John Higgins
7. Mark Williams
8. Mark Selby
9. Jimmy White
10. Steve Davis