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Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby vodkadiet

John Higgins is nowhere near the player he was in 1998. It is ludicrous to say he was at his best from 2009-2011. O'Sullivan was at his best from in 2004/05, or maybe 2001/02.

Maybe the players ranked further down a slightly better today than they were when Hendry was number 1, but it really doesn't matter, as none of these players would have beaten Hendry at The World Championship in the 1990s. Ronnie O'Sullivan couldn't beat him there in this period, and neither could Mark Williams, so to think a player ranked 40 or 50 could have is not realistic.

These debates could go on for months but the record books count for far more than anyone's biased opinion.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Johnny Bravo

vodkadiet wrote:John Higgins is nowhere near the player he was in 1998. It is ludicrous to say he was at his best from 2009-2011. O'Sullivan was at his best from in 2004/05, or maybe 2001/02.


How can you say Ronnie was at his peak in 2001-02 or 2004-2005 when his safety and tactical play is miles better nowadays ?!
He also copes with pressure much better. Back then, he used to throw his toys out of the pram when he was behind and/or playing badly.

vodkadiet wrote:Maybe the players ranked further down a slightly better today than they were when Hendry was number 1, but it really doesn't matter, as none of these players would have beaten Hendry at The World Championship in the 1990s. Ronnie O'Sullivan couldn't beat him there in this period, and neither could Mark Williams, so to think a player ranked 40 or 50 could have is not realistic.


Ronnie was not an all-rounded player back then. He wasn't even 20 years old when Hendry was dominating. Same goes 4 John Higgins and Mark Williams.
As they entered their early 20's, and more good players came along (Paul Hunter among others), Hendry's domination ended. Ain't that a coincidence !!!

A player ranked 40 or 50 back then, of course not. But a player ranked 40 to 50 nowadays can. It won't happen very often, but it's more likely to happen nowadays than it was back then.

vodkadiet wrote:JThese debates could go on for months but the record books count for far more than anyone's biased opinion.


That's not true and you know it. He only has those records because he played in a WEAKER ERA.
Had he turned pro at the same time as Ronnie, John and Mark, I doubt he would have won more than 3 World Titles.
And by your twisted logic, Joe Davis will always be the greatest due to his 15 World Titles. But we all know that's not true.
Ronnie has already proven he is the greatest even if he never wins another match. But, just like Andre said, if he wins 1 more WC, very few will doubt that fact.

At the end of the day, it's all about one's perception of greatness. Ronnie is a joy to watch when in full flow, so 4 me no matter how many titles Hendry has won/would have won, I'd still regard Ronn to be the greater player.
I'll pick artistry over droids everytime.
Last edited by Johnny Bravo on 12 Dec 2016, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Wildey

Andre147 wrote:I would agree standard overall is higher now, the whole Tour is much stronger nowdays than they were in the 90s. Nowadays basically any player on the tour on a very very good day can beat the WN1 for instance, you didn't have that in the 90s.

However, standard from the Top players will probably never be higher than what it was between 97-2004.

yea BUT Hendry is not the World no 1 today that makes a huge difference.


Hendry did lose to players like Tai Pitchit but his best form was far more consistent than any of the top players today Selby included.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Cloud Strife

vodkadiet wrote:John Higgins is nowhere near the player he was in 1998. It is ludicrous to say he was at his best from 2009-2011. O'Sullivan was at his best from in 2004/05, or maybe 2001/02.

Maybe the players ranked further down a slightly better today than they were when Hendry was number 1, but it really doesn't matter, as none of these players would have beaten Hendry at The World Championship in the 1990s. Ronnie O'Sullivan couldn't beat him there in this period, and neither could Mark Williams, so to think a player ranked 40 or 50 could have is not realistic.

These debates could go on for months but the record books count for far more than anyone's biased opinion.


I agree that Higgins played the best snooker of his career in the 1998 World Chanpionship. His latter World titles came on the back of his superior B game and being mentally stronger than his rivals.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Andre147

Yes it's down to how a person perceives greatness. If you only count titles, then it's fine, but by that logic then Joe Davis should be ahead shouldn't he?

Titles are important, but not everything. Like I said, for me Ronnie needs to win 1 more Worlds to be the true GOAT, but I don't mind if he doesnt win another because like I said his legacy is long established, at one point I didnt even think he would surpass the 3 World Titles, but he proved me and many many others wrong from 2012 onwards.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby vodkadiet

All I am reading on here is biased opinions. O'Sullivan has had 24 years to prove he is the greatest and he hasn't.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Andre147

vodkadiet wrote:All I am reading on here is biased opinions. O'Sullivan has had 24 years to prove he is the greatest and he hasn't.


Again, it's your opinion. I could also argue it's a biased one since you want it so badly for Hendry to be the greatest. If you think he is, that's fine, I also think he is unless Ron wins another Worlds, but just an opinion like I have, nothing else.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby vodkadiet

I don't like Hendry. I have no vested interest in him being the greatest. I couldn't care less.

Facts are facts and opinions are opinions.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Pink Ball

It's nonsense to suggest world championship wins are a perfect measure of greatness. Some eras are stronger than others and to suggest otherwise is also nonsense.

The 90s had a lot of garbage, but Hendry was still superb. The late 90s until mid 00s were to die for, and I have no problem staying world titles worth then were worth more. That's my opinion, but it's a correct opinion. To say my opinion doesn't hold up is also just an opinion.

But since 2005 there's been a lot of dross, and I think it gets worse year by year. To suggest Sullivan is better now than he was in 2004 is shit-for-brains stuff.

The current era is puke.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Pink Ball

vodkadiet wrote:Alan McManus reaching the world semis at 45 proves how pathetic the current bunch are....

Absolutely. I think John Higgins is pretty average right now but he can still compete because those around him can't.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby vodkadiet

Pink Ball wrote:
vodkadiet wrote:Alan McManus reaching the world semis at 45 proves how pathetic the current bunch are....

Absolutely. I think John Higgins is pretty average right now but he can still compete because those around him can't.


Someone on here suggested Higgins was better in 2009-2011 than he was in 1998. That was the most ludicrous comment I have read on this forum.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Pink Ball

vodkadiet wrote:
Pink Ball wrote:
vodkadiet wrote:Alan McManus reaching the world semis at 45 proves how pathetic the current bunch are....

Absolutely. I think John Higgins is pretty average right now but he can still compete because those around him can't.


Someone on here suggested Higgins was better in 2009-2011 than he was in 1998. That was the most ludicrous comment I have read on this forum.

I disagree. In 2011 Higgins was excellent, right up there with 1998 form. 2009 and 2010? No. But to suggest Higgins is still improving is puss.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby TheRocket

Hendry should be regarded as the greatest ever because of his 7 world titles.

But O'Sullivan in 2004/2005 played the greatest Snooker you'll ever seen someone play. Particularly that 2004 World Championship and 2005 Masters.

The two standout matches which always come into my mind are the 2004 world semi final and the 2005 Mastersfinal.

The way he trashed Hendry 17:4 in the 2004 world semi final was just incredible. And dont tell me , that was because Hendry couldnt play anymore, this that. Hendry had just won the british open that season , beating a very strong O'Sullivan in the final and in the UK Semifinal 2003 he completely outscored and outplayed O'Sullivan. He was definitely capable of winning another world title back then. But reality is that no other player who has ever played the game could have done what O'Sullivan did to Hendry in that match.

And that 2005 masters final was even better when he humiliated Higgins. 98% pot success in the end. Never seen Higgins so helpless in any match.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Andre147

Getting back to the topic at hand here, here's my All Time Top 10:

1. Stephen Hendry
2. Ronnie O'Sullivan
3. Steve Davis
4. John Higgins
5. Mark Williams
6. Ray Reardon
7. Alex Higgins
8. Jimmy White
9. Mark Selby
10. Ding Junhui

And yes, like Pink Ball rightly says, "It's nonsense to suggest world championship wins are a perfect measure of greatness".

By this twisted logic, imagine someone winning 8 ranking titles in his career, and those happen to be the World Championship. Should this player be considered the greatest of all time? I don't think so!

Sure it's the most important title of all and the hardest to win, but not the 100% measure of greatness.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Wildey

personally I believe ronnie is now the greatest ever player.

I've never taken tournament wins as gauge of greatness. for me it's the manner you do it.

Hendry and Ronnie are miles ahead of anyone else because of the way they played to get all those tournaments the aragance of knowing they can turn it on under pressure.

Ronnie overtook Stephen a few years back for me the way he won the WC back to back with next to no play between events.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby TheRocket

Like Andre I think Ronnie O'Sullivan needs to win one more world title to be considered as the greatest player ever.

With 7 and 5 world titles the difference is still too big you have to say but if he got to 6, then the longevity and the higher peak level would definitely come into play and become a serious argument to put him ahead of Hendry.

But as long as he's stucked with the 5 worlds Hendry should be considered the goat.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Cheshire Cat

I agree with Wild's comment earlier, that Hendry is probably one of if not the most consistent players ever.

The man got down and potted long balls for fun like they were over the pocket, didn't matter if he was glued to the cushion or not. His raw potting ability was monstrous, and unlike MJW who was probably the best single ball potter, Hendry often went on and won frames in one visit.

I think O'Sullivan is a better player than Hendry, and the best there's ever been, but Hendry has the records and that can't ever be denied. Comes down to what your definition of 'greatest' is, I suppose.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Wildey

Cheshire Cat wrote:I agree with Wild's comment earlier, that Hendry is probably one of if not the most consistent players ever.

The man got down and potted long balls for fun like they were over the pocket, didn't matter if he was glued to the cushion or not. His raw potting ability was monstrous, and unlike MJW who was probably the best single ball potter, Hendry often went on and won frames in one visit.

I think O'Sullivan is a better player than Hendry, and the best there's ever been, but Hendry has the records and that can't ever be denied. Comes down to what your definition of 'greatest' is, I suppose.

you can make arguament for both and can manipulate the argument with facts and figures until the cows come home.

bottom line is both have been brilliant additions to the sport and created history along the way.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Johnny Bravo

TheRocket wrote:Hendry should be regarded as the greatest ever because of his 7 world titles.


But that's the problem. Hendry wouldn't have won so much had he turned pro at the same time as Ronnie, John and Mark.
The early 90's was a very weak era.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Pink Ball

Johnny Bravo wrote:
TheRocket wrote:Hendry should be regarded as the greatest ever because of his 7 world titles.


But that's the problem. Hendry wouldn't have won so much had he turned pro at the same time as Ronnie, John and Mark.
The early 90's was a very weak era.

You're right, but so is now.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby TheRocket

Johnny Bravo wrote:
TheRocket wrote:Hendry should be regarded as the greatest ever because of his 7 world titles.


But that's the problem. Hendry wouldn't have won so much had he turned pro at the same time as Ronnie, John and Mark.
The early 90's was a very weak era.


I'd agree but in the end it's hard to say what a good era, what a bad era is. That's more or less personal opinion. Many say, the current era is also very rubbish. We're waiting since an eternity for young players to really come through and beat the current (old) topguys on regular basis. But it doesnt happen.

Look at tennis. Many say, Federer wouldnt have won 17 slams if he had faced peak Nadal and Djokovic right from the start. And even as a Federerfan I have to say. That's definitely true. But in the end they look at the titles, not the era. It's about doing the best and aiming the maximum in the era you play. You can't do anything about the opponents you face. Just do your job. And that's what Hendry did year after year.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Wildey

Johnny Bravo wrote:
TheRocket wrote:Hendry should be regarded as the greatest ever because of his 7 world titles.


But that's the problem. Hendry wouldn't have won so much had he turned pro at the same time as Ronnie, John and Mark.
The early 90's was a very weak era.

your a very weak bucking poster like a stuck record

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Pink Ball

It took me a long time to say Sullivan is the best of all time. I think you can make a very strong case for Hendry, and to a lesser extent Davis and Higgins, but weighing all parts of the argument, I officially declare Ronnie O'Sullivan the best of all time. The debate is now over.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Andre147

Pink Ball wrote:It took me a long time to say Sullivan is the best of all time. I think you can make a very strong case for Hendry, and to a lesser extent Davis and Higgins, but weighing all parts of the argument, I officially declare Ronnie O'Sullivan the best of all time. The debate is now over.


<ok>

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby Cloud Strife

Wildey wrote:personally I believe ronnie is now the greatest ever player.

I've never taken tournament wins as gauge of greatness. for me it's the manner you do it.

Hendry and Ronnie are miles ahead of anyone else because of the way they played to get all those tournaments the aragance of knowing they can turn it on under pressure.

Ronnie overtook Stephen a few years back for me the way he won the WC back to back with next to no play between events.


Personally, I believe Ronnie overtook Hendry and the rest the day he first picked up a snooker cue. The gap has been constantly widening ever since.

Re: Pink Ball's Top 10 Players of All-Time

Postby vodkadiet

Given that records don't seem to matter in this debate, there is a guy who used to play in a snooker club I used to play in. He never actually missed a single ball. He made on average 15 maximum breaks every 25 frames he played. I think his name was Koji Fermanji. He was undoubtedly the best player I ever saw.

Sorry, I forgot to add the prefix 'personally', as against the prefix 'impersonally.

1. Koji Fermanji
2. Sudeth Niallslic (He was another who made maximums blindfolded)
3. Ceth Suvlisrety. He is an 8 year old who last night made 4 maximums in 12 frames in another snooker club I occasionally frequent.
4. Freen Bathrwqaj. He beat a top 16 professional 33-4 in a best of 65 practice match last week, making 19 centuries along the way.
5. Coolsyeth Byhjil. He also has many wins over 16 players in practice. He has never actually lost a match to any current professional, although one of them once took him to a final frame in a best of 25 match once, before Coolsyeth knocked in a 155 break, after obtaining a free ball, in that final frame. The professional in question said about his own performance "That was the best snooker i have ever played yet it was still not good enough to beat Coolsyeth".

These are my current top 5 but this could change soon as every snooker club I visit these days seems to attract matches where top professionals are getting thrashed by bus conductors, bin men, tube drivers, dentists, and traffic wardens. None of these guys want to turn professional as they don't think snooker really matters, and just play for fun.

In short, when records don't count then there is a 'greatest player ever' around every corner and in every other petrol station....