Topic locked

Re: Hearn responds to Ronnie's "blackmail" comments

Postby Sickpotter

I wonder if there's an applicable formula to figure out if the earnings ratio holds true through all (or most pro sports).

For example if the top player in the sport earns X than the lowest ranked player typically earns Y% of the X amount...

I don't know but either way, professional sports is not a guaranteed income and those who elect to pursue that course should always have a backup strategy (like an education). If you haven't looked into a way to cover the costs of your first few years on the professional circuit you have not approached the sport in a realistic manner. No professional player should expect to be making big bucks at the outset and should in fact be planning on 3-4 years of minimal earnings at best.

The players who have not planned for this likelyhood should be doing exhibitions, playing smaller events, working part time to make up for what they're not earning yet. It's like going to university...3-4 years of debt followed by the opportunity to earn a lot.

In the end it is not Hearn's responsibility to ensure players are adequately prepared for the costs involved so complaining to him that some aren't making enough cash at the outset is pointless.

I don't know, maybe it's just me but we didn't hear anywhere near this amount of complaining from the lower ranked pros when they had far less chances to make a few $.

We've had part time pros for decades who've worked other jobs to support their snooker ambitions but we should now be concerned that the latest generation might have to do the same? :shrug:

Re: Hearn responds to Ronnie's "blackmail" comments

Postby Wildey

the main problem now is theres no time to get a "proper" job inbetween events but i agree its each man for himself and Barry Looking after the Game.

Re: Hearn responds to Ronnie's "blackmail" comments

Postby Monique

Well the reason for them not complaining before is precisely that they had the opportunity to put a backup strategy into place because the schedule allowed them to. Now that's just impossible because of the schedule AND because of the "blackmail" ranking system. It's a blackmail system - to Hearn's own admission - because basically they are compelled to play in all events to maintain their rankings. Even if it means being out of their pocket and they know it. No self-employed person would normally do that - accept a job when they know they will make a loss - but here it's either that or lose their pro status.
So I'm not concerned that the new generation should do the same, work part-time or get an education while pursuing their career. I'm concerned because the schedule and ranking system TOGETHER - make that virtually impossible while at the same time the money isn't there for them to make a proper living.
I would have no complains if - like in other sports - the ranking were computed over a pre-defined number of best results combined with 3 or 4 mandatory majors. That would allow them the manage their career better and concentrate on events where they have the better chances. That would also allow players with limited resources to favour tournaments that are close to their base area - again as it is the case in other sports - in order to control their expenses.
A flat system - as opposed to a tiered one - would also definitely help as it would mean that everyone would start with the same chances in every tournament, hence allowing the best youngsters to climb faster and the older players with family or other commitments to pick and chose and still be able to do enough to stay in the tour.

Re: Hearn responds to Ronnie's "blackmail" comments

Postby Sickpotter

Fair points but even if the player doesn't have the time to work to fund their professional career they should at least have a backup plan should they fail to succeed at their venture.

If a player needs to delay their entry into the professional ranks to work and build up some $ to help fund their foray into the professional ranks then so be it. Just having talent is not enough, there is a cost to pursuing the professional athlete career and players should be aware and plan for it BEFORE they go pro. As you've noted, with the new structure they won't have time to make sure this stuff is in place after they go pro.

Re: Hearn responds to Ronnie's "blackmail" comments

Postby Roland

snookerbacker ‏ @snookerbacker1

@AndrewPagett Just wondering why you didn't enter Q-School? Having a year off or have you had enough?


Andrew Pagett ‏ @AndrewPagett

@snookerbacker1 it's all good and well playing in the Q school but what happens if u get through? Then u Need 2 rob the bank 2 afford 2 play



Devil's advocate. What does this say about the pro tour and what does it say about Padge?

Re: Hearn responds to Ronnie's "blackmail" comments

Postby Monique

Sickpotter wrote:Fair points but even if the player doesn't have the time to work to fund their professional career they should at least have a backup plan should they fail to succeed at their venture.

If a player needs to delay their entry into the professional ranks to work and build up some $ to help fund their foray into the professional ranks then so be it. Just having talent is not enough, there is a cost to pursuing the professional athlete career and players should be aware and plan for it BEFORE they go pro. As you've noted, with the new structure they won't have time to make sure this stuff is in place after they go pro.


You're right, but that's the way of thinking of an adult man. Try and remember yourself at 15 or 16 … including how much prepared you were to listen to the advice of parents and other adults around you.
David Hendon was suggesting, earlier in the season, that some sort of advice/support service should be organised by the authorities to help the youngest players to manage their resources. A good idea but again it doesn't come for free.

I honestly think that the authorities should consider options to make it more sustainable for the players, even if it means expanding the game at a slightly slower pace. After all they are the game's more valuable asset.
When I see that young talents like the Craigie brothers didn't enter the Q-School , I'm worried for the future. If such youngsters don't consider to take the game because they can't afford it, we have a serious problem.

Re: Hearn responds to Ronnie's "blackmail" comments

Postby Wildey

Sickpotter wrote:Fair points but even if the player doesn't have the time to work to fund their professional career they should at least have a backup plan should they fail to succeed at their venture.

If a player needs to delay their entry into the professional ranks to work and build up some $ to help fund their foray into the professional ranks then so be it. Just having talent is not enough, there is a cost to pursuing the professional athlete career and players should be aware and plan for it BEFORE they go pro. As you've noted, with the new structure they won't have time to make sure this stuff is in place after they go pro.

The problem here is we are consumed with how snooker was done and is a bit blinkered to the hardship even the likes of Federer had to go through before he reached the top.

Roger Federer did not wake up one morning a millionaire top tennis player he had to travel the globe scraping a living to get enough points to climb the rankings. if you are lucky enough to be a Federer or a Tiger and get up there quickly great but for one of those guys there's 100s still fighting to get those points on minimum wages traveling all year round in Australia,Japan,Europe,china etc etc etc.

its just not unique in snooker that is the harsh reality of a unstable income of sport or the entertainment industry.

its just not like a 9 to 5 job where you get wages every week or month.

Re: Hearn responds to Ronnie's "blackmail" comments

Postby Monique

Wild WC wrote:
Sickpotter wrote:Fair points but even if the player doesn't have the time to work to fund their professional career they should at least have a backup plan should they fail to succeed at their venture.

If a player needs to delay their entry into the professional ranks to work and build up some $ to help fund their foray into the professional ranks then so be it. Just having talent is not enough, there is a cost to pursuing the professional athlete career and players should be aware and plan for it BEFORE they go pro. As you've noted, with the new structure they won't have time to make sure this stuff is in place after they go pro.

The problem here is we are consumed with how snooker was done and is a bit blinkered to the hardship even the likes of Federer had to go through before he reached the top.

Roger Federer did not wake up one morning a millionaire top tennis player he had to travel the globe scraping a living to get enough points to climb the rankings. if you are lucky enough to be a Federer or a Tiger and get up there quickly great but for one of those guys there's 100s still fighting to get those points on minimum wages traveling all year round in Australia,Japan,Europe,china etc etc etc.

its just not unique in snooker that is the harsh reality of a unstable income of sport or the entertainment industry.

its just not like a 9 to 5 job where you get wages every week or month.


Indeed Wild BUT

- there is a lot more money in tennis than in snooker, even at the lower level
- they are not compelled to play in every event to maintain their ranking, it's a "best results" based system mainly.
- they are rarely pursuing a pro career after their early thirties, hence they usually don't engage in building a family before their career is over, and by then, if successful they have earned a fortune. Snooker players can't really do that.

so the situations are not comparable.

Re: Hearn responds to Ronnie's "blackmail" comments

Postby Sickpotter

Career or family is a question everyone has to deal with and find a compromise between the two.

Those who become CEO and such and make the big bucks always take a hit on the family side.

Want to be a pro sports figure? Be prepared for a similar impact on your family life.

Quite frankly this is all just lack of preparation for professional life ups and downs on the part of players .

Research your costs, earnings potential, etc and decide of the sacrifices you have to make are worth it but make no mistake, there will be sacrifices.

Yes, 15 and 16 year olds don't think that far ahead or want to listen to the advice of adults but the majority of them will when confronted by the reality of what their future will hold if they elect to ignore the advice.

Similarly a lot of 15/16 year olds don't see the benefit of school and would rather cut class. Most follow what their parents tell them and recognize that no school means no reasonably good future. When the small percentage that doesn't listen drops out is stuck in a dead end job (or no job at all) do their complaints of how hard their life is deserve any attention? Not in my book and the same holds true for young players who don't adequately prepare for tour/professional sports life.

Re: Hearn responds to Ronnie's "blackmail" comments

Postby snooky147

Lack of preparation my ass. You have a habit of making everything so black and white, when in reality there are so many levels of grey inbetween.
Hearn has done great, of that there is no question but not everything that's been done will be for the ultimate good of the Sport. The cost involved now are massive compared to years ago so if your not fortunate enough to have been born with the proverbial silver spoon or have a sponsor who is willing to take a considerable hit per season well you are going to have a hard time. When I said in relation to all this that I want players paid I did not mean for not WINNING. BUT, at the present moment, winning or not they are entitled to what they get if they lose., okay, it's all going to change and that's okay too but these guy's worked their asses off, had considerable highs and lows over the space of many seasons to get to where they are so to just dismiss them as fodder like many of you do is just plainly wrong,

If Hearn would accede to a 'best of' scenario the players would have a little more breathing space. Make so many rankers and the six foreign PTC's mandatory and the rest part of the best of scenario and it would be a much happier circuit.

Lol, I have lost my train of thought. rofl To be continued........

Re: Hearn responds to Ronnie's "blackmail" comments

Postby Wildey

snooky mate with respect it really none of hearns concern how much the cost to players are.

his job is to put on tournament its players decition am i going to play or look for a job in tesco however if they opt for the snooker route the rewards are greater now than ever before.

a managing director of a buisness cant take employers financial concerns when offering a job its their decition if the job is for them or not.

Re: Hearn responds to Ronnie's "blackmail" comments

Postby Witz78

snooky

when it goes to an Order of Merit, that will almost effectively be the same as a "best of" in many ways.

I do agree and sympathise in many ways though that despite the game "opening up" and going through enormous growth at the moment, this current time when there should be thousands of promising amateurs clamouring to get on tour almost feels like the opposite, as theres a raft of players being lost to the game due to financial reasons rather than ability reasons. im thinkings the likes of Figuerido, Craigie, Sharav and many more

Re: Hearn responds to Ronnie's "blackmail" comments

Postby Wildey

Witz78 wrote:snooky

when it goes to an Order of Merit, that will almost effectively be the same as a "best of" in many ways.

I do agree and sympathise in many ways though that despite the game "opening up" and going through enormous growth at the moment, this current time when there should be thousands of promising amateurs clamouring to get on tour almost feels like the opposite, as theres a raft of players being lost to the game due to financial reasons rather than ability reasons. im thinkings the likes of Figuerido, Craigie, Sharav and many more

but whats the answer ??

give these players a x amount of money when they turn pro...

Re: Hearn responds to Ronnie's "blackmail" comments

Postby Witz78

do away with players having to pay entry fees to tournaments?

the flat 128 system of win 1 game and you get paid, will help

just thinking about these Asian PTCs, its hard to see any young players new or pretty new to the tour, heading over to play in them.

Re: Hearn responds to Ronnie's "blackmail" comments

Postby Monique

Wild WC wrote:
Witz78 wrote:snooky

when it goes to an Order of Merit, that will almost effectively be the same as a "best of" in many ways.

I do agree and sympathise in many ways though that despite the game "opening up" and going through enormous growth at the moment, this current time when there should be thousands of promising amateurs clamouring to get on tour almost feels like the opposite, as theres a raft of players being lost to the game due to financial reasons rather than ability reasons. im thinkings the likes of Figuerido, Craigie, Sharav and many more

but whats the answer ??

give these players a x amount of money when they turn pro...


The answer is not to be too "greedy" (I'm not talking money here) and align the growth with the resources available. And that includes what players can reasonably afford in terms of expenses given their earning opportunities. You can't have a global circuit with only a a handful of exponents and you can't develop the game without the players. Ultimately "human resources" are always the most valuable asset and the hardest to replace. You don't become a top player, or even a decent pro overnight. It's years of hard work and dedication.

Re: Hearn responds to Ronnie's "blackmail" comments

Postby JIMO96

Witz78 wrote:just thinking about these Asian PTCs, its hard to see any young players new or pretty new to the tour, heading over to play in them.


On the other hand, you might unearth more Asian talent. Hearn may have let himself in for an organisational headache with the APTCs, as it's quite possible they could attract 600+ entries. After all, we're always hearing that Shanghai, Beijing etc have 1800 clubs.....

Then again they may just attract the cream of Chinese snooker plus the 32 guys that travel to Wuxi. Who knows?

Re: Hearn responds to Ronnie's "blackmail" comments

Postby Wildey

you got 2 arguaments going on at the same time

Young Players strugling to afford it but wanting it and established players that can afford it cant be bothered.

my sympathy is with the Likes of Igor,Craigie etc and im really strugling to see the point of view of Ronnie and Co.

Re: Hearn responds to Ronnie's "blackmail" comments

Postby Roland

On the PTCs Ben was philosophical last night saying even if he didn't qualify through Q School next season the 8 top amateurs in the PTC list will get a tour card. This was news to me and a step in the right direction, however he also knows that some PTCs will be held in China and he can't afford to play in those.

Re: Hearn responds to Ronnie's "blackmail" comments

Postby Witz78

Sonny wrote:On the PTCs Ben was philosophical last night saying even if he didn't qualify through Q School next season the 8 top amateurs in the PTC list will get a tour card. This was news to me and a step in the right direction, however he also knows that some PTCs will be held in China and he can't afford to play in those.



yeh thats true what he says about the top 8 amateurs in the PTCs

its one of the ways there going about getting extra numbers to bump the tour up to 128 (obviously less players gonna drop off next season bearing in mind a lot of the guys who finish out of the top 64 will have the security of a 2 year tourcard)

as for the Asian PTCs well there actually gonna have their own order of merit with the top 4 Chinese amateurs on it (i think) getting a 2 year tourcard and also a spot in a 32 man field PTC Grand Final.

Re: Hearn responds to Ronnie's "blackmail" comments

Postby Alpha

I don't think the Asian PTC's are for the top players anyway, they're more for the benefit of the Chinese players, and those young Chinese players we hear a lot about.

Re: Hearn responds to Ronnie's "blackmail" comments

Postby Wildey

Sonny wrote:I'm not clued up enough of the new PTCs and tour places, I'm relying on information from other people who have read the terms.

yup i need to catch up too lol

theres so much snooker going on im obviously not up to date either.

Re: Hearn responds to Ronnie's "blackmail" comments

Postby PLtheRef

Wild WC wrote:
Sonny wrote:I'm not clued up enough of the new PTCs and tour places, I'm relying on information from other people who have read the terms.

yup i need to catch up too lol

theres so much snooker going on im obviously not up to date either.


Not good enough for someone who holds the title of the most reverend and revered water closet on the planet. :sad:

Re: Hearn responds to Ronnie's "blackmail" comments

Postby SnookerFan

PLtheRef wrote:
Wild WC wrote:
Sonny wrote:I'm not clued up enough of the new PTCs and tour places, I'm relying on information from other people who have read the terms.

yup i need to catch up too lol

theres so much snooker going on im obviously not up to date either.


Not good enough for someone who holds the title of the most reverend and revered water closet on the planet. :sad:


rofl

Re: Hearn responds to Ronnie's "blackmail" comments

Postby SnookerFan

Wild WC wrote:
Sonny wrote:I'm not clued up enough of the new PTCs and tour places, I'm relying on information from other people who have read the terms.

yup i need to catch up too lol

theres so much snooker going on im obviously not up to date either.


I'm just checking the list myself. I'm trying to work out my snooker trips for next year. I considered the PTCs, but am undecided.

I'd love to go to the World Championship Qualifiers, but financially speaking they are a bit close to the Crucible for travelling and hotels and stuff. :chin:

Re: Hearn responds to Ronnie's "blackmail" comments

Postby Witz78

SnookerFan wrote:
Wild WC wrote:
Sonny wrote:I'm not clued up enough of the new PTCs and tour places, I'm relying on information from other people who have read the terms.

yup i need to catch up too lol

theres so much snooker going on im obviously not up to date either.


I'm just checking the list myself. I'm trying to work out my snooker trips for next year. I considered the PTCs, but am undecided.

I'd love to go to the World Championship Qualifiers, but financially speaking they are a bit close to the Crucible for travelling and hotels and stuff. :chin:


lame excuse mate

ill be going to NYC for Mania 2 weeks before next years WC :mosh2:

As for snooker trips in 2012-13 well im contemplating the 1st 4 days in York for the UK

also tempted by one of the foreign PTCs in autumn

woulda done the Shootout again in Jan if it was in Blackpool but by all accounts its in Bournemouth next season instead <doh>

Re: Hearn responds to Ronnie's "blackmail" comments

Postby Wildey

Witz78 wrote:
SnookerFan wrote:
Wild WC wrote:
Sonny wrote:I'm not clued up enough of the new PTCs and tour places, I'm relying on information from other people who have read the terms.

yup i need to catch up too lol

theres so much snooker going on im obviously not up to date either.


I'm just checking the list myself. I'm trying to work out my snooker trips for next year. I considered the PTCs, but am undecided.

I'd love to go to the World Championship Qualifiers, but financially speaking they are a bit close to the Crucible for travelling and hotels and stuff. :chin:


lame excuse mate

ill be going to NYC for Mania 2 weeks before next years WC :mosh2:

As for snooker trips in 2012-13 well im contemplating the 1st 4 days in York for the UK

also tempted by one of the foreign PTCs in autumn

woulda done the Shootout again in Jan if it was in Blackpool but by all accounts its in Bournemouth next season instead <doh>

lets be honest you can still go to blackpool to watch the shootout not as if you spend much time watching snooker was it <ok>

Re: Hearn responds to Ronnie's "blackmail" comments

Postby SnookerFan

Witz78 wrote:
SnookerFan wrote:
Wild WC wrote:
Sonny wrote:I'm not clued up enough of the new PTCs and tour places, I'm relying on information from other people who have read the terms.

yup i need to catch up too lol

theres so much snooker going on im obviously not up to date either.


I'm just checking the list myself. I'm trying to work out my snooker trips for next year. I considered the PTCs, but am undecided.

I'd love to go to the World Championship Qualifiers, but financially speaking they are a bit close to the Crucible for travelling and hotels and stuff. :chin:


lame excuse mate

ill be going to NYC for Mania 2 weeks before next years WC :mosh2:

As for snooker trips in 2012-13 well im contemplating the 1st 4 days in York for the UK

also tempted by one of the foreign PTCs in autumn

woulda done the Shootout again in Jan if it was in Blackpool but by all accounts its in Bournemouth next season instead <doh>


Well, we'll see. Might try to get to qualifiers. There's always the easier on the wallet Newport. rofl

You should get yourself to Australia Witz. :-D