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Re: PTCs reward

Postby Roland

In the comments section someone called John A made a few good points amongst all the anonymous trash

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Wildey

Sonny wrote:In the comments section someone called John A made a few good points amongst all the anonymous trash

yes i do believe snooker players think its only them but the sacrifices and loses every sportsman has had to go through to reach the top is pretty frightening.

just look at Mark Jones hannahs father he is traveling all over the country at his own expense to give his Daughters the Chance in Sport and that Goes for Every Pearant out there that helps their Kids reach their Full Potential in Sport.

in Tennis Roger Federer did not just Arive a Millionaire he had to do the Hardship to Get there same with Tiger Woods etc etc

Sport is a vocation a burning Ambition yes they have to Live put food on the Table but if they feel its not Worth it then Try something else.

:gag: :gag: :gag:

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Monique

Wild wrote:
Sonny wrote:In the comments section someone called John A made a few good points amongst all the anonymous trash

yes i do believe snooker players think its only them but the sacrifices and loses every sportsman has had to go through to reach the top is pretty frightening.

just look at Mark Jones hannahs father he is traveling all over the country at his own expense to give his Daughters the Chance in Sport and that Goes for Every Pearant out there that helps their Kids reach their Full Potential in Sport.

in Tennis Roger Federer did not just Arive a Millionaire he had to do the Hardship to Get there same with Tiger Woods etc etc

Sport is a vocation a burning Ambition yes they have to Live put food on the Table but if they feel its not Worth it then Try something else.

:gag: :gag: :gag:


Yes but Mark Jones has the money to do this - not taking anything from his efforts that are admirable - but not every parent has. I'd say, today, if a family is not comfortably well off, they just can't do it as much as they'd want to.

Wild I ask you to accept that people can't spend the money they don't have, as much as they'd want to they just can't. It's that simple really. It's not a matter of not wanting to make sacrifices, it's a matter of possibilities, plain and simple.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Wildey

but thats the sacrifices they have to make to reach the top in sport its not just exclusive to snooker you spend far more money than you get back for a ambition that might never pay off.

id love nothing more than to see these players that play snooker for our pleasure earn mega money to do it and i do understand theire arguament but lets not fault barry hearn for that unfortunally that is the harsh reality of being a sportsman or Woman.

the snooker tour needs a better structure and if the callender for 2012/2013 is as messy as this one id start to change my mind lol

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Monique

Wild wrote:but thats the sacrifices they have to make to reach the top in sport its not just exclusive to snooker you spend far more money than you get back for a ambition that might never pay off.

id love nothing more than to see these players that play snooker for our pleasure earn mega money to do it and i do understand theire arguament but lets not fault barry hearn for that unfortunally that is the harsh reality of being a sportsman or Woman.

the snooker tour needs a better structure and if the callender for 2012/2013 is as messy as this one id start to change my mind lol


Wild do you ever READ what people write? If you don't have the money you can't spend it even if you want to. If you have not guaranteed incomes of a sort you can't even borrow it. You just' CAN'T. It's not a matter of saying "OK I won't buy that fancy car, or go to some hols and I will invest in snooker instead". For many it's just that they don't have the money, not for cars, hols or anything ... not even to fulfill their dream, snooker. Do you really think that Igor wouldn't play - after managing to stay on the MT - if he could afford it? Do you really believe that Eden Sharav wouldn't go to every PTC if he could afford it? They just can't.
And an increasing number of players are struggling badly because, whatever is written, their expenses have grown much more than their earning opportunities.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Wildey

ive read and it changes nothing the reality is in sport you have to spend money you dont have to achieve the goal of fullfilling your ambition.

i know its harsh but thats how it is and always has been monique its just now hitting the snooker world.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby gallantrabbit

The fact of the matter is that it's a sight easier and cheaper to fork out for fees and travel than it is in sports like tennis and golf. At least we're talking Britain and a little in Europe. Don't criticise Hearn for this surely. He promised opportunities not guarantees. This kid Monique is mentioning is now getting opportunities. He's not a pro is he? But like ALL other amateurs he can enter the number of tourneys he can afford. That's life. I can play in the PTCs if I want. Mix it with the good players. These kids are getting an opportunity they never had before.
Become World or UK champ, then the guarantees might just start. Before that just build slowly and earn your chance.
Anyone would think that Hearn is sitting on a pile of gold ruthlessly deciding who to chuck a bone to and who not.
Remember that 2 years ago snooker was less than nowhere, and BH won't get every decision right, just about 95%.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby markj147

Monique wrote:
Wild wrote:just look at Mark Jones hannahs father he is traveling all over the country at his own expense to give his Daughters the Chance in Sport and that Goes for Every Pearant out there that helps their Kids reach their Full Potential in Sport.

Yes but Mark Jones has the money to do this - not taking anything from his efforts that are admirable - but not every parent has. I'd say, today, if a family is not comfortably well off, they just can't do it as much as they'd want to.

Wild I ask you to accept that people can't spend the money they don't have, as much as they'd want to they just can't. It's that simple really. It's not a matter of not wanting to make sacrifices, it's a matter of possibilities, plain and simple.


Thanks Monique but I can assure you I don't have the money. We as a family make sacrifices every day for a potential glimpse at a very difficult future in a sport that does not cater for women - at the moment. I personally think I am barking mad, but Theresa and I do tend to put my childrens interests before my own. Saying that there are probably hundreds of parents with no resources and children with potential.

Then there's the golf!!!!!!!!!!

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Monique

Wild wrote:ive read and it changes nothing the reality is in sport you have to spend money you dont have to achieve the goal of fullfilling your ambition.

i know its harsh but thats how it is and always has been monique its just now hitting the snooker world.


It's not about being harsh, it's just impossible for many. If nothing could be done about it, OK, it would be a shame but that's it. But things could be done or done differently to improve the situation and are not done and that's what angers me. Because, don't be naïve, some people do make money out of snooker and I'm not talking about the top players.

What I'm afraid of, you see, and I'd love to be proved wrong, I really do, is that if Barry Hearn's ambitious plans fail, he will just quit, give the game back to the players for the £1 he bought it, as he said he would, and leave it in shambles. It takes years and years of hard work practice to become a good snooker player, not to mention a top snooker player. If a lot of them are forced out of the MT because they can't afford the costs, if youngsters don't come on board because they (or their parents) can't afford the costs, then that's the end of the game, or at least a deep slump. And it will take years to rebuild a proper field of exponents should that happen. Just like it did during the 60th, but for other reasons.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby markj147

To validate my comment. I now rely on assistance from family and other persons to top up my personal input to help Hannah and Ellie. This year I have had to turn down invitations, tournaments and practice for Hannah and I don't see things getting easier in this economic climate. These decisions will affect Hannah's rankings in the events she normally plays in but that is the price we have to pay to get her the match practice. Fortunately there is an English Under 21 ranking tour being held in Derbyshire which is close to where we live so costs are reduced and the quality of the opposition will be far greater than other ladies tournaments and junior events so the upside of losing her hard earned ranking position is excellent match practice against youngsters who could realistically make it onto the pro tour in the future.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Wildey

markj147 wrote:To validate my comment. I now rely on assistance from family and other persons to top up my personal input to help Hannah and Ellie. This year I have had to turn down invitations, tournaments and practice for Hannah and I don't see things getting easier in this economic climate. These decisions will affect Hannah's rankings in the events she normally plays in but that is the price we have to pay to get her the match practice. Fortunately there is an English Under 21 ranking tour being held in Derbyshire which is close to where we live so costs are reduced and the quality of the opposition will be far greater than other ladies tournaments and junior events so the upside of losing her hard earned ranking position is excellent match practice against youngsters who could realistically make it onto the pro tour in the future.

thats the decition you as a family has to take the same as the likes of Ben Harrison or John Higgins at different ends of the snooker ladder.

Ben got sponsors in Barry Hearn did not suply him with sponsorship its each man or family for themselves in Sport all a governing body can do is give them more opertunities.

im not heartless it is tough

young amataurs in the PTC has spent £700 and got nothing back plus expenses as been said.

theres a ballance though scrap the PTC and thats that chances for all thoes amataur players to rub shoulders with the best has gone someone has said on SSB Scrap the British PTC and go to europe with double money another person said scrap the european ones and just play in britain :?

possibly 12 is too much now but fans are undecided where they should be played.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Wildey

mon dont think we will agree EVER but atleast im in a happy and cool place today <laugh>

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Monique

gallantrabbit wrote:The fact of the matter is that it's a sight easier and cheaper to fork out for fees and travel than it is in sports like tennis and golf. At least we're talking Britain and a little in Europe. Don't criticise Hearn for this surely. He promised opportunities not guarantees. This kid Monique is mentioning is now getting opportunities. He's not a pro is he? But like ALL other amateurs he can enter the number of tourneys he can afford. That's life. I can play in the PTCs if I want. Mix it with the good players. These kids are getting an opportunity they never had before.
Become World or UK champ, then the guarantees might just start. Before that just build slowly and earn your chance.
Anyone would think that Hearn is sitting on a pile of gold ruthlessly deciding who to chuck a bone to and who not.
Remember that 2 years ago snooker was less than nowhere, and BH won't get every decision right, just about 95%.


How are we talking Britain and a little of Europe? In the previous 6 months we've had Australia, Thailand, China (twice for some) and Brazil. I've no idea how often you travel and flight gallantrabit, but I do often. I know how much it costs, even in economy without flexibility, and I have the possibility to plan ahead, to know my return date, to book early, things qualifiers (for major events) for instance can't always do.
PTCs of course are not that "remote" (for now) but players still have to travel, book accommodations etc even in UK. And Germany (2x), Belgium, Poland and Ireland that's 10 "flights" to pay for (players usually don't book their return flight until they lose) . When you add up over a full season it's a hell of a lot of money.
Once again I'm not saying that Barry Hearn's vision is wrong. Only that he's going too fast considering the resources at hand. I certainly don't want to go back to 6 events a year. But we are now at 27, with a hectic calendar and a lot of back and forth traveling. March will be just crazy for the players, as Dave Hendon points out. I think that if we had 20 events (instead of the previous 6) with a bit more resources put into each, and more structure in the calendar it would be better and more sustainable for the players. Then, if it is successful and money starts to "enter", further expansion can be worked at.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Witz78

12 PTCs = 12x3
PTC Final = 5
Australia = 7
Shanghai = 7
UK = 9
Masters = 8
Germany = 5
Welsh = 7
India = 7
World Open = 5
China = 7
World Championships = 17
Wuxi = 4
Brazil = 4
Premier League = 10 + 2
Championship League = 4 x 4
Power Snooker = 2
Shoot Out = 3
World Cup = 7
World Seniors = 2
Main rankers Qualifiers = 4 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 12

i make that 214 days of snooker before you even include amateur qualifying for PTCs, Legends events etc

i think that total amount is about right

next step has to be to reduce the amount of PTCs and smaller events for proper main rankers

my ultimate tour would be

8 main rankers - Ireland, Scotland, Welsh, Germany, Australia, Brazil, Europe x 2
4 major rankers - WC, UK, China, World Open
Masters
2 or 3 Invitational fun events - Shootout etc
Premier League turned into a one off elite Cup event
PTC reduced to 6 to 8 events but with the current money still
Rolling rankings fully adopted
PTCs spread through season better
Qualifiers played before the next event so the calendar is easier to follow and rolling rankings can work

Re: PTCs reward

Postby gallantrabbit

Monique I was talking about the PTCs. The others are events players have qualified for and are on certain guarantees of prize money or invitations (ditto). And as a player if you go along just to pik up the guarantees you ain't a pro.
I was talking about the PTCs. I'd prefer the attitude of Tony Drago in Sonny's interview who says that the 10k is there to win, and the opportunity is there for all. If you're not good enough, then you're not. As I've said many a time it's a better of getting introduced to the system than the mental torture that was Blackpool some years back.
Hearn said no guarantees from the start. He also said many a year ago winner takes all, losers make their own arrangements. That includes flight tickets.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Wildey

well i cant argue with that you lknow realisticly theres nothing to stop PTC Being played in feb or march and the PTC Finals just before crucible

8 spread over 10 months instead of 12 over 8 months.

then structure the full rankers where you go from India to china etc like they used to do in the early 90s

i just think everything we are discussing has been talked about with Hearn and co suerly its just common sense.....but his priority quite clearly was getting players playing that what they wanted that what they were begging for its just they thought more events=crucible doesent work like that im afraid.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby GJ

mon

<ok>

baz's poodle <doh>

Re: PTCs reward

Postby GJ

gallantrabbit wrote:
GJ wrote:mon

<ok>

baz's poodle <doh>


child in a playground GJ. rofl



coming from the poster who thinks he has the rigjt to decide whos a decent poster and who isnt

<laugh> rofl :wave:

Re: PTCs reward

Postby snooky147

Some poster earlier made the analogy of apprentices, who made sacrifices in order to learn their craft so that when they graduated they could get proper paid work and the sacrifice would be worthwhile.
Well many of todays top stars have made those sacrifice's in the form of the qualifying school at Blackpool, which was a brutal scholl with very little reward if you were not successful. But even apprentices get a minimum wage. Sadly, some in our sport still get no guaranteed income. I say that if you qualify through the Q school, well you are a pro and in no way mediocre so lets cut the PTC'S down to 9 and use some of the entry funds from the Q School to give those at 64 to 96 a minimum payout per season, like it was all those years ago at Blackpool. Hell, why not generate some cash by opening the Sport up fully just like in those days.

To get back to my original point though, the top names have made these sacrifices coming through the rank, why should they have to do so again as some would suggest here by playing in Tournaments that would clearly cost them money.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby GJ

snooky147 wrote:Some poster earlier made the analogy of apprentices, who made sacrifices in order to learn their craft so that when they graduated they could get proper paid work and the sacrifice would be worthwhile.
Well many of todays top stars have made those sacrifice's in the form of the qualifying school at Blackpool, which was a brutal scholl with very little reward if you were not successful. But even apprentices get a minimum wage. Sadly, some in our sport still get no guaranteed income. I say that if you qualify through the Q school, well you are a pro and in no way mediocre so lets cut the PTC'S down to 9 and use some of the entry funds from the Q School to give those at 64 to 96 a minimum payout per season, like it was all those years ago at Blackpool. Hell, why not generate some cash by opening the Sport up fully just like in those days.

To get back to my original point though, the top names have made these sacrifices coming through the rank, why should they have to do so again as some would suggest here by playing in Tournaments that would clearly cost them money.



<ok> :hatoff:

Totally agree its like having to do the same apprenticeship twice

totally pointless

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Wildey

yes cant argue with that ....

what gets me is its more the £100,000 a year players that complaining about PTC not the little man strugling at the bottom.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Witz78

Wild wrote:yes cant argue with that ....

what gets me is its more the £100,000 a year players that complaining about PTC not the little man strugling at the bottom.


yeh i agree

for all the folk on here moaning about the PTCs being bad for the younger up and coming and struggling players, they are actually the ones who embrace the PTCs and get on with it, they are happy to have more opportunities.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Monique

Witz78 wrote:
Wild wrote:yes cant argue with that ....

what gets me is its more the £100,000 a year players that complaining about PTC not the little man strugling at the bottom.


yeh i agree

for all the folk on here moaning about the PTCs being bad for the younger up and coming and struggling players, they are actually the ones who embrace the PTCs and get on with it, they are happy to have more opportunities.


You don't really know what the low ranked players actually think because, first they rarely are interviewed, next they will be more cautious about speaking their minds (to a media person at least) than household names. I can assure you that not all of them are enthused by the situation, far from it.
Once again I don't want to see the PTCs disappear, quite the opposite, I want them to grow into quality events where the players want to play and that server their purpose in promoting the game in Europe. I'm not suggesting that the financial reward should be high but I would like it that if a player wins their first round match they would cover their expenses, or at least "minimal expenses" (cheapest possible transport+accommodations). No more. No less. If the resources are not there to do that, then I'd prefer that tournaments like Brazil or India are left out of the calendar until the circuit is a bit more "established" and money and structure are there to organise them properly. I'd also prefer to have 8 quality PTCs rather than 12 poor PTCSs. And obviously the ones played in cubicles with no audience are the ones that should go first.
Is that so unreasonable?

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Witz78

yeh id rather ditch the 4 Sheffield PTCs and have that 200k split between the other 8 PTCs so theres 75k instead of 50k up for grabs at them

prize money or price money as Wild would say could then be

last 64 - £400 instead of £200
last 32 - £800 instead of £600
last 16 - £1500 instead of £1000
QF - £2500 instead of £1500
SF - £4000 instead of £2500
ru-up - £7500 instead of £5000
winner - £12000 instead of £10000

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Tubberlad

I can't argue against striking a deal with airlines and hotel groups, I think it's not a huge ask to try and get that covered for struggling players, in particular younger amateurs.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Wildey

Witz78 wrote:prize money or price money as Wild would say could then be

:bird:

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Wildey

you know what for all the differences i think we all agree there has to be changes soon in some way.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby gallantrabbit

if the ptcs are the same in 3 years time then I`d be disappointed. They won`t be though knowing Hearn. Some of you forget how low this game sunk and are incredibly impatient. There will be little improvements each year. This year the money is the same fot the events themselves and there`s more for the finals. Rewards for success. That`s the way Hearn thinks and that`s the way it should be.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Wildey

Eden Sharav cant afford to play in any other PTC this season and we have bloody maguire complaining <doh>