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forced out of the table

Postby bonoboz

if a ball is forced out of the table I guess that a color will be spotted & a red wont. but the question is how many points will be scored !?

Re: forced out of the table

Postby Roland

It's a foul shot so if black is forced off the table the break ends and the opponent receives 7 points.

Re: forced out of the table

Postby acesinc

Roland, your answer is of course correct but very limited in scope. To be more general, any stroke which is foul may have had one or possibly more fouls occur during the course of the stroke. The point value awarded for any foul stroke will be the highest point value of any ball which was involved in any foul portion of the stroke but with minimum penalty of four points, maximum seven.

So for instance, striker is on red but has to pass very close to blue for his shot. Say he strikes very hard but grazes the blue first (would be a foul, five points), then white strikes red so hard that the red jumps off the table (would be foul, four points) then white rebounds off of three cushions, strikes black eventually knocking black into a pocket (would be foul, seven points).

In a refereed match, the referee will call "Foul" immediately upon the first infringement (as soon as white touches blue in this case) but the referee WILL NOT call a penalty point value until all balls come to rest (or at least until it is clear that there will be no further consequence) so in the described instance, "Foul............(white is bouncing around three cushions......black falls in pocket)...Player A seven."


So to specifically address the question at hand, the value of a ball forced off table penalty of course depends on which colour ball was involved (minimum penalty four, maximum seven).

Re: forced out of the table

Postby Andre147

acesinc wrote:Roland, your answer is of course correct but very limited in scope. To be more general, any stroke which is foul may have had one or possibly more fouls occur during the course of the stroke. The point value awarded for any foul stroke will be the highest point value of any ball which was involved in any foul portion of the stroke but with minimum penalty of four points, maximum seven.

So for instance, striker is on red but has to pass very close to blue for his shot. Say he strikes very hard but grazes the blue first (would be a foul, five points), then white strikes red so hard that the red jumps off the table (would be foul, four points) then white rebounds off of three cushions, strikes black eventually knocking black into a pocket (would be foul, seven points).

In a refereed match, the referee will call "Foul" immediately upon the first infringement (as soon as white touches blue in this case) but the referee WILL NOT call a penalty point value until all balls come to rest (or at least until it is clear that there will be no further consequence) so in the described instance, "Foul............(white is bouncing around three cushions......black falls in pocket)...Player A seven."


So to specifically address the question at hand, the value of a ball forced off table penalty of course depends on which colour ball was involved (minimum penalty four, maximum seven).


You are correct but you're forgetting one thing... If the striker was indeed playing a red which was the ball on and then just grazed the blue first and all the other things you mentioned, the referee too has to call Foul and a Miss if there were enough points on the table for his opponent to win. The Miss here really is important, because if the non-offender so wished he could have had all balls put back in their original position like blue and the black you mentioned, the only ball which would remain on the pocket is the red which was forced off the table, a red always remains on the pocket even if it was forced off the table and a Miss occured.

Just to clarify that the Miss here would be very important as well.

Re: forced out of the table

Postby acesinc

Wow!! Great reply. You are of course presumably correct. I had never thought about the "miss" issue coupled with the "forced off table" issue before. And the truth is that I am not sure that the WPBSA has put these together either. I don't have time to go through the full rule book at the moment, but my understanding of "forced off table" had always been that once a red is off, it stays off, exactly like you are saying. But a cursory glance at the Section 2 definition of "Forced off table" and the Penalties section of Section 3 gives no indication that a ball forced off the table cannot be put back.

Do you feel absolute confidence in that answer of returning all balls to original position EXCEPT for the ball forced off? It would seem odd if that that were the case, especially if it had been the last red....what would be the returning striker's ball on? Would have to be yellow but obviously that would be an inconsistency in the Rules... And there is also the issue of a player touching the balls when the referee is replacing them. That would imply that if a player simply bent down and picked up the ball from the floor to hand it to the referee (that is, presuming that the red would be replaced to the table), he would get a penalty which is obviously ridiculous as well.

My friend, you may have single-handedly twisted the arm of the WPBSA to force some sort of change to the Rules of Snooker. Well done!


And I just thought of another odd scenario....what if instead of red, the ball forced off was yellow. Does it get returned to where it was with the "miss" call or put back on spot as usual following a "forced off table". I think you have just collectively made a whole bunch of people scratch their heads and ponder. Hmmmm...... While it is not at all my intention to doubt your credibility and I applaud your critical thinking on the topic, considering these scenarios through logically, it seems to me that with the implementation of the "Foul and a Miss" rule, they must have figured that a red forced off table must be allowed to be put back. So again I have to ask very respectfully, are you confident in your assessment and if so, can you point me toward the appropriate section in the Rules of Snooker?

Edit: just a follow up thought on the topic; you have this entrenched in my mind now.....
My understanding of the logic behind why a red forced off table stays off table is very simply because there is no "red spot" on which to place it. Every other colour of course has its designated "home" and so a place to return to when potted or forced off table (along with contingencies in case the "home" is occupied). But in the case of a "foul and a miss" with the subsequent "forced off" of the red, the fouled red truly does now have a so-called "spot" to be returned to--the exact "spot" that it had been occupying prior to the "foul and a miss". So, following my own logical conclusion but with the greatest respect for your opinion, until you can provide evidence, I have to think that the fouled red must be replaced in the case of a "foul and a miss".
Last edited by acesinc on 20 Nov 2014, edited 1 time in total.

Re: forced out of the table

Postby Andre147

Ok, so let's be totally clear about this important issue we are discussing, I'll answer it in parts from your previous post if you don't mind:

"But a cursory glance at the Section 2 definition of "Forced off table" and the Penalties section of Section 3 gives no indication that a ball forced off the table cannot be put back."

During a Foul and a Miss situation you described, the red forced off the table would always remain off the table in subsequent strokes and therefore 8 possible points would be removed as well, because as you said there would be no spot for the red to be replaced, and all the other colours would be put back in their original position if the non-offender so wished, and the ball on would remain a red unless that was the last red on the table, in which case like you said the yeallow would be the ball on, in ascending order according to their respective points.

But, like you well said, and this is something that has been long discussed before, there is a case when "It would seem odd if that that were the case, especially if it had been the last red....", well, if this happens, and the referee believes the striker would gain an obvious advantage by forcing the last red off the table (advantage being he would remove 8 possible points and therefore his opponent would need Snookers), as I said if the referee believes the striker forced the last red off the table on purpose then he has the discretion to replace the red in it's original position, and the referee would therefore warn the offender that if a further situation occured, he would award the frame to his opponent, as according to Section 4, topic 1, a(ii) and (iii), in which case, given this ungentlemanly conduct, the referee would warn the player, and a further instance would result in the frame being forfeited. This is the only instance when the referee has the right to replace a red which has been forced off the table when he considers the striker would gain an obvious advantage, especially if this was the last red. This obviously doesn't cover those instances when a red for some reason falls into the pocket when no stroke was being played, in this case the referee would simply put the ball back, whether it's red or not, as near to it's original spot that was close to the pocket as possible, although I only saw this happening once at the World Champs in a Murphy match, can't remember which opponent, but I remember he was about to play a shot and then suddently the red fell into the pocket, and the referee simply put the red back and Murphy then played the shot he wanted to play earlier.

But this to say that forced off the table situation, the red ball would only be replaced if the ref thought the striker would gain an obvious and unfair advantage by smashing the red and forcing it off the table.

"And there is also the issue of a player touching the balls when the referee is replacing them. That would imply that if a player simply bent down and picked up the ball from the floor to hand it to the referee (that is, presuming that the red would be replaced to the table), he would get a penalty which is obviously ridiculous as well."

You see this happening sometimes, when for instance the cue ball falls into the pocket, you often see a player just getting it out of the pocket and handing it to the referee, and no foul is incurred, the same would happen if the red was to be replaced according to the above situations I described. And also, according to Section 3, topic 14 (f) and (g), "When any ball is being replaced after a miss, both the offender and the next player will be consulted as to its position, after which the referee‟s decision shall be final. (g) During such consultation, if either player should touch any ball in play, he shall be penalised as if he were the striker, without affecting the order of play. The ball touched shall be replaced by the referee, to his satisfaction, even if it was picked up, Section 3. 10 (d) (iii)". This would mean that if any player was to touch a ball while the referee was replacing them, he would be penalised with a 7 point penalty, but obviosuly not if he just picked a ball from the floor as we sometimes see it happening and no penalty is awarded.

So this to say are the only instances when a red should be put back to it's original position if it was forced off the table, 1: ungentlemanly conduct, and 2:fell into a pocket when no stroke was being played.

Hopefully I was clear enough on this Forced off the Table issue, I know it can be quite complicated at times but it really isn't that hard to understand.

Re: forced out of the table

Postby acesinc

Thanks, Andre. Definitely sounds like you have discussed and considered this in detail before. It's brand new to me, still trying to wrap my head around it. I seem to recall that there was a specific line in the Rules somewhere making it clear that a red forced off table must remain off table but I haven't been able to find it yet. Could just be bad memory on my part. I have some old versions of the rules as well so that may also be a part of my confusion.

Re: forced out of the table

Postby Andre147

acesinc wrote:Thanks, Andre. Definitely sounds like you have discussed and considered this in detail before. It's brand new to me, still trying to wrap my head around it. I seem to recall that there was a specific line in the Rules somewhere making it clear that a red forced off table must remain off table but I haven't been able to find it yet. Could just be bad memory on my part. I have some old versions of the rules as well so that may also be a part of my confusion.


Yes mate the rules have been revised very recently, August this year in fact there have been some revisions and clarifications, and guess what... this Forced off the table rule was one of them to be revised... because in situations like this in the past you could in theory see a player deliberately forcing the last red off the table in order to gain an unfair advantage... Although I never saw this happen in all my years of watching Snooker, this is something that has to be covered within the rules, and the referee will warn the player if he sees he could gain an unfair advantage over his opponent.

You were right, you raised a very interesting issue, and that's why also this Forums are great, to share our views and to clarify any misunderstadings on such matters like this.

Hopefully this will naver happen when you're playing at your club, lol <laugh>

Re: forced out of the table

Postby Odrl

Just to add to the confusion a little...

Andre147 wrote:You are correct but you're forgetting one thing... If the striker was indeed playing a red which was the ball on and then just grazed the blue first and all the other things you mentioned, the referee too has to call Foul and a Miss if there were enough points on the table for his opponent to win. The Miss here really is important, because if the non-offender so wished he could have had all balls put back in their original position like blue and the black you mentioned, the only ball which would remain on the pocket is the red which was forced off the table, a red always remains on the pocket even if it was forced off the table and a Miss occured.


I don't think this is correct. If the balls are replaced after a Miss, the referee will attempt to put all balls back to their original position, including any reds that were moved or pocketed during the shot, or even forced off the table in some other fashion.

Reds would only stay off the table if the non-offender put their opponent back in from the position left, or if he chose to play the shot himself.

Re: forced out of the table

Postby Andre147

Odrl wrote:Just to add to the confusion a little...

Andre147 wrote:You are correct but you're forgetting one thing... If the striker was indeed playing a red which was the ball on and then just grazed the blue first and all the other things you mentioned, the referee too has to call Foul and a Miss if there were enough points on the table for his opponent to win. The Miss here really is important, because if the non-offender so wished he could have had all balls put back in their original position like blue and the black you mentioned, the only ball which would remain on the pocket is the red which was forced off the table, a red always remains on the pocket even if it was forced off the table and a Miss occured.


I don't think this is correct. If the balls are replaced after a Miss, the referee will attempt to put all balls back to their original position, including any reds that were moved or pocketed during the shot, or even forced off the table in some other fashion.

Reds would only stay off the table if the non-offender put their opponent back in from the position left, or if he chose to play the shot himself.


You know what, I think you're absolutely right. I think I misunderstood Acesinc's whole pointm, because if there are indeed enough points for the non-offender to win the frame, even if that red was forced off the table the non.offender has the right to ask for all balls to be replaced, including like you rightly say the red as well, because after all this is a Miss. I just confirmed this via a Group On Facebook dedicated with the rules of Snooker, with experienced referees in that Group.

So yeah at first I thought it was harder to understand than it actually is, but you're totally right mate, all balls would be replaced if the non-offender so wished. Christ this issue was beggining to do my head in, but yeah you're right mate.

So Acesinc was right after all, although like I said above some rules have been clarified recently, namely the "Foul and a Miss" one, but in the above situation all balls would be replaced, including that red or reds like you said.

Re: forced out of the table

Postby acesinc

Thanks for the detailed scrutiny and the final resolution guys. This finally clears it all up in my head. Even the bit I said about a player picking up a ball from the floor being a penalty according to the miss rule but you shone the light on that with your quote of the proper rule, "....(g) During such consultation, if either player should touch any ball in play, he shall be penalised as if he were the striker, without affecting the order of play..." because from the floor, the ball is not in play and it only becomes back in play when the ref initially places it back on the bed of the table so the players cannot touch it after that, only indicate to the ref where they think it should be moved.

Andre, I about spit up my coffee when I read your quote, "Christ this issue was beggining to do my head in, but yeah you're right mate." It somehow makes me happy to find out that there are others who can drive themselves batty thinking about the absolute minutiae of The Game like I do. :dizzy: :pal:


   

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