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Re: more than one foul in same stroke

Postby nic6318

Hi there
I tried to search the forums for an answer but without success, hope you can help.

Referring to rule stating: Should more than one foul be committed in the same stroke the highest value penalty shall be incurred.

In regards to scoring are these two scenarios the same. 1. a foul where the striker misses the object ball (a red) and the white continues to hit a blue ball and then a black. 2. a foul where the striker misses the object ball (a red) and the white continues to hit a blue ball then pots a black.

Is there a section in the rules that is addressing this question?

thank you

Re: Re: more than one foul in same stroke

Postby Sickpotter

The two scenarios are not the same.

1. In this scenario your penalty is the blue ball, that you struck the black after is irrelevant. Foul 5
2. In this scenario your penalty is 7 for potting the black.

First scenario the black never leaves the table.

First ball stuck after missing the object ball is the foul unless you knock a higher value ball in, then its the higher value.

Anyone have the official rule handy?

Re: Re: more than one foul in same stroke

Postby acesinc

Sickpotter wrote:..

Anyone have the official rule handy?


Of course, Sickpotter, you have the answer exactly correct. As for the official Rule, it is Section 3., Rule 11., (g):
"If more than one foul is committed in the same stroke, the highest value penalty shall be incurred."

Looking at this from a practical standpoint, it is best to remember that Referees are just human beings like anyone else. They have two eyes that can only focus on one object or event at a time, they are subject to error because their vision may have been obstructed, or two events occurred more or less simultaneously on different parts of the table so they obviously weren't watching both, or maybe, like everyone, they just have a brain-fart once in a while and might make a mistake:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27_RC27gSdw

So the Rules are actually written in such a way to assist them as much as possible in completing their duties accurately with the least chance for mistake. That sounds complicated but all it means is that the Referee will instinctively watch (and listen....the click of the balls could be critical) at crucial times for particular fouls to occur. And that means that when those crucial times pass, their attention can now be freed to watch for other actions which may or may not occur. For instance, in the OP's scenario number 1, one of the "crucial times" to watch for is which object ball is the FIRST contact of White? After that FIRST contact is made, it is simply either fair or foul and the Ref no longer has to pay any attention at all for the purpose of "first contact", he (or she) has plenty of other things to worry about, so it wouldn't matter if the White went along and in turn shook hands with every other ball on the table, the FOUL occurred the instant that White contacted Blue so currently, the PENALTY (which will not yet be called audibly) is FIVE AWAY. Before we move on, let's consider another thing that the Ref must watch out for...the possibility of "jump ball". By definition, a jump ball can only occur on the White's FIRST ENCOUNTER with an object ball. First Encounter means either the first ball White contacts OR the first ball White jumps over without actually touching. If the White passes the crucial First Encounter without a jump ball occurring, the Ref no longer has to pay any attention if White jumps over any other ball. Beyond that FIRST ENCOUNTER, the White might bounce back off (not over) the first ball it strikes, hit a cushion, pop up in the air, hit the lampshade, then bounce around like a ping pong ball over three other balls...there is no "jump shot" because the First Encounter was legal and the Ref need devote no further attention to it.

Now, moving on to scenario 2, of course multiple fouls might be committed, such as Blue (ball not on) struck first, and then Black falls in pocket. The Referee will only call "Foul!" once. A stroke is simply "Foul" or "Fair"....it cannot be "Double-foul" in the same way it cannot be "Double-fair" so if any additional fouls occur, the Ref will just take note of them for Penalty assessment later. So in scenario 2, Blue is struck out of turn, the Ref calls, "Foul" and thinks to himself (Five away) but continues watching and then the Black falls in a pocket, which of course is also a foul. After the stroke is finally completed, the Referee will then tally penalties and assign the largest value penalty awarded to the opponent so in the case of scenario 2, he will call any legally scored points to the striker and also the proper penalty points to the opponent, in this case Seven away, overriding the foul on Blue.

Of course, the Rules do seem to be complicated. But in actuality, they have been quite painstakingly written to help the Referee to do his or her job as accurately and succinctly as possible, striving to point out the specific points at which things are very important so pay attention versus the points in time at which things are not so important so you, Mr. Referee, can focus on other things.

Re: more than one foul in same stroke

Postby acesinc

nic6318 wrote:Hi there
I tried to search the forums for an answer but without success, hope you can help.

Referring to rule stating: Should more than one foul be committed in the same stroke the highest value penalty shall be incurred.

In regards to scoring are these two scenarios the same. 1. a foul where the striker misses the object ball (a red) and the white continues to hit a blue ball and then a black. 2. a foul where the striker misses the object ball (a red) and the white continues to hit a blue ball then pots a black.

Is there a section in the rules that is addressing this question?

thank you


Hi Nic,

I think in my above response, I probably overly complicated your question, so to try to break it down into something simpler...

It seems that you might be confusing ANY contact by the White with FIRST contact by the White. One of the most basic Rules of the Game is that when the White ball is struck, it is obliged to FIRST make contact with a ball that is on or could be on. In both of your scenarios, the ball on is Red (any Red that happens to be on the table could be on) so that means the White must FIRST contact a Red. At the instant that White contacts any other colour first (in your scenario, Blue), then a Foul has been committed regarding "first contact" and so it is not possible for any other "first contact" fouls to occur so it does not matter if White then makes contact with Black, or Pink, or Red, or anything else....the "first contact" rule has already been infringed so it cannot be infringed again. But your second scenario is a "wrong ball in pocket" foul to go along with the "first contact" foul. In that case, the PENALTY value of the foul stroke now becomes seven rather than five. If we flip flop those two....say Red is ball on, and White first contacts Black, but then the Blue falls in pocket...it will still be a Seven point penalty; the highest penalty value of the two. Say a third foul also occurred....the Pink also jumps off the table and is now on the floor...Seven away, the highest Penalty value of the three fouls that occurred. The "foul" is the infraction of the Rules that occurred; the "penalty" is the point value imposed as a result of the foul stroke, no matter how many individual fouls may have occurred during the course of that single stroke.