World Championship Final: Ronnie O'Sullivan v Mark Selby

Richproc wrote:Seems strange that before some people were saying that this is the best version of Ronnie ever which I disagreed with I thought his peak game was between 2004 and 2008. He is much better mentally now but more inconsistent, and since he lost the world final there saying he is in decline. My view is he can still produce his best at times but is getting through some matches because he is playing against a lot of mental midgets and his better mental state allows him to compete better when not at his best. I think the world championship caught him out as he wasn't in great form and he was up against a player that wouldn't go away and Ronnie hasn't had this situation for a while.

I'd definitely agree there. Ronnie has the beating of most players in the world today providing he plays at a high level. Many of today's players are easy meat to him as they are not mentally strong enough to beat Ronnie so even Ronnie's B game will suffice or perhaps C game. However, Selby is a different breed. He is mentally tough and possesses the best match play game in the world today and doesn't mind missing shots if he wins frames in the end which is a mentality that certainly helps if you are playing Ronnie. We have seen it at The Crucible before with Ebdon and Dott. Draw Ronnie into a psychological battle where each frame is drawn out and requires very tough match play snooker to win and Ronnie struggles. There are only a very few players of this standard today though so a lot of the time Ronnie's B game gets him by but not last night.

GJ wrote:The funny thing was in session 1 the bbc pundits were foaming about how Ronnie was managing to win the scrappy frames and this was due to peters.

That changed very quick in day 2 and all of a sudden the same pundits said he had no chance in scrappy frames.

Sums up how fickle the bbc pundits are

Time for a big overhaul me thinks

Commentators are a funny breed. I distinctly remember in a frame on Day One Ronnie was in amongst the balls. He played two really loose positional pots and had to go down for lower colours to keep the break going and just managed to clip a blue in that took him back onto the reds. What do the commentators say? 'Ronnie has this cueball on a string'. Eh? After playing two loose positional shots?

My summary of the final on reflection:

Ronnie started off like a steam train, he was superb in the opening frame. Selby was obviously feeling edgy and couldn't find the baulk cushion, Ronnie did and when he got in he made something out of nothing. I thought at the time there was no way he could keep making breaks like that for 18 frames. It was outstanding. He took advantage and didn't let Selby settle until the 4th frame, which was massive.

Selby getting on the board at 3-1 settled him and the next 4 frames were turgid stuff. Selby was clearly feeling the after effects of the draining semi-final and in the end had a great chance to make it 4-4 through his battling qualities rather than any form. His cue ball control was poor but his potting was good enough to make sure when he lost position he could play a telling safety.

It was noticeable that throughout the final most times in the first frame of a session or after the mid-session interval, Ronnie came out firing and looked very dangerous in the balls. The second frame Selby managed to get a grip and did well to limit his opponents chances by brilliant safety play. That said, at 8-3 and 10-5 I really felt worried. I could see that the Selby of the previous rounds was not present and that O'Sullivan was there for the taking if he would only turn up because he was missing balls you wouldn't expect him to.

Selby finally turned up at 10-5 and found his game when he most needed it to pull back to 10-7. Considering this was next best way to behind apart from 9-8 he must have felt like he was leading. Ronnie had clearly missed a trick not being 11-6 or more likely 12-5 ahead. I think this is where the difference is between Ronnie this tournament and the Ronnie of 2012 and 2013. The previous years he would have had that all important lead with a big gap. It was evident from his first two sessions against Joe Perry that Ronnie could be pressured and wasn't on the top of his game.

Selby obviously got a decent night sleep despite someone setting off the fire alarm in his hotel at 3am and the desire was back, and the form that took him to the final. He wanted it more than Ronnie and prepared to do whatever it took. He was brilliant in winning the opening 4 frames of the 3rd session to take the lead 11-10, but then came the most bizarre part of the match. Those last 2 frames were full of the most unbelievable misses you could ever wish to see from both players. Ronnie missed a yellow over the pocket I could pot with my eyes closed standing on one leg after 10 pints. I have never seen him miss such an easy pot with so little to do for guaranteed position on the next ball. It didn't cost him though, he won the frame for 11-11 but then in the following frame the same scenario happened with both players playing with mashed heads and when Ronnie missed that pink to middle at the end it was utterly bizarre. Selby held himself for a brilliant dead weight bottle pink and thin clip black for 12-11.

The last session was back to normal, Selby had the focus and managed to keep Ronnie at bay after Ronnie stormed to the first frame for 12-12. Selby opened up to 15-12 and kept his opponent at arms length and the rest is history. From 15-14 he was absolutely outstanding. It was like a boxing match, a tired opening day, clinging onto his talented opponent and smothering him to stop him from delivering any fatal punches, then when he sensed he had got his man he delivered the knock out punch in fine style.

An absolute all time classic World Final and the last clearance of 35 will live long in the memory. Which other World Champion would have been capable of clearing the table to win the title from that position? It was classic Selby. Just watch that last frame over again and in one frame you have everything that encapsulates the player and why he's been my favourite player for so long. Some of the shots he pulled off were simply outstanding in the circumstances, in particular every single ball of that 35 dish.

Stevens never had killer instinct so give me robbo and Selby taking on the likes of Ronnie any day.

Doherty was no better than say Selby so I think going on about how much better the good old days were is silly.

Richproc wrote:Seems strange that before some people were saying that this is the best version of Ronnie ever which I disagreed with I thought his peak game was between 2004 and 2008. He is much better mentally now but more inconsistent, and since he lost the world final there saying he is in decline. My view is he can still produce his best at times but is getting through some matches because he is playing against a lot of mental midgets and his better mental state allows him to compete better when not at his best. I think the world championship caught him out as he wasn't in great form and he was up against a player that wouldn't go away and Ronnie hasn't had this situation for a while.

I am one of these people who said this is the best ever Ronnie.

True, he had magnificent performances between 2004 and 2008 but he now has the consistency and mental strength. Why couldn't Ronnie defend the World Title in his so call peak years? Not because he was outplayed but because he crumbled under the pressure and got frustrated. Ronnie didn't lose this World Final, Selby won it. His safety game was too strong, Robertson also couldn't cope with it in the semis. No shame in that. Ronnie didn't lose the final because he wasn't scoring enough but because he lost the safety battles. Ronnie O'Sullivan won 14 Crucible matches in a row, only losing 2 (!!!) session in 3 years before this final. Unthinkable 10 years ago. Ronnie still can produce these superb peak performances, we saw one against Walden in the Masters.

Ronnie turned into a tough match player these last couple of years and that makes him the best ever O'Sullivan. The titles he won speak for themselves.

Im struggling a bit with the fickleness here.


All ive heard All season how Dr Peters has made Ronnie the Complete Player and this season Ronnie has had one of his best ever seasons now that hes lost a World final hes not the bees knees i have been told he was and hes reached 3 out of his 6 world finals in a weak era.

Holden Chinaski wrote:

GJ wrote:Stevens never had killer instinct so give me robbo and Selby taking on the likes of Ronnie any day.

Robbo and Selby are brilliant players, but John Higgins, Hendry, Williams and Ronnie in their prime are the greatest of all times for me.

Certainly 3 of those 4 stopped Robbo and Selby from accomplishing more titles from an early age. But it seems the 30s are the new 20s these days in snooker terms.

I miss those days aswell :( Im glad Hendry might play in some tournaments next year.

But once ROS goes I think my interest might diminish in snooker unless we get some good rivalries or some good young guns coming through.

That was a great final and we need more of the same.

when the hell is Ding going to have a decent shot at the worlds! not sure if its bad luck or he is mentally screwed?!?

Holden Chinaski wrote:

GJ wrote:Stevens never had killer instinct so give me robbo and Selby taking on the likes of Ronnie any day.

Robbo and Selby are brilliant players, but John Higgins, Hendry, Williams and Ronnie in their prime are the greatest of all times for me.

Fair point I think Hendry , Higgins and Ronnie yes those 3 will be down as the 3 greatest

I think theres a good chance for Selby and robbo to overhaul Williams number of majors though

I think Robbo especially is just getting started. He won his first Worlds at 28 (for context Hendry only won one major after this age and MJW never won another major after this age) and he's improved so much in terms of safety, matchplay and breakbuilding even since I started watching snooker in 2011. He may have only just reached his peak.

freakmoomin wrote:I miss those days aswell :( Im glad Hendry might play in some tournaments next year.

But once ROS goes I think my interest might diminish in snooker unless we get some good rivalries or some good young guns coming through.

That was a great final and we need more of the same.

when the hell is Ding going to have a decent shot at the worlds! not sure if its bad luck or he is mentally screwed?!?

Ding is a funny one because you would think winning 5 ranking events he would be so ready for worlds and confidence sky high but again he loses early on

Then Trump as well he has now lost 3 big matches at sheffield from a commanding lead will these scars start to show in future worlds

Theres too much analising going on here players no matter who they are cant play at their peak every match the Greats play at their best more often but the key to snooker is work through the bad times and come out on Top in my time watching Snooker the two players that's done that better than most is Steve Davis and Mark Selby.

Steve Davis did not Blow Jimmy White or Alex Higgins away he strangled them slowly and that what Mark Selby does.

Dr peters has still done a good job. Strange that some people think because he lost the worlds he's no good. Is he now a premier league manager? Ronnie has been reasonably consistent for 3 years and even with a year off still good enough to take the worlds. Dr peters work is in the great Dennis Taylor's words, amazing!

Skullman wrote:I think Robbo especially is just getting started. He won his first Worlds at 28 (for context Hendry only won one major after this age and MJW never won another major after this age) and he's improved so much in terms of safety, matchplay and breakbuilding even since I started watching snooker in 2011. He may have only just reached his peak.

Robbo has improved so much he played far better in this years worlds than in 2010 so that shows hes still getting better.

Hes always willing to improve where as others let their ego get in the way of developing their game.

Wildey wrote:Theres too much analising going on here players no matter who they are cant play at their peak every match the Greats play at their best more often but the key to snooker is work through the bad times and come out on Top in my time watching Snooker the two players that's done that better than most is Steve Davis and Mark Selby.

Steve Davis did not Blow Jimmy White or Alex Higgins away he strangled them slowly and that what Mark Selby does.

Very good post, Wild.

TheRocket wrote:

GJ wrote:

Holden Chinaski wrote:

GJ wrote:Stevens never had killer instinct so give me robbo and Selby taking on the likes of Ronnie any day.

Robbo and Selby are brilliant players, but John Higgins, Hendry, Williams and Ronnie in their prime are the greatest of all times for me.

Fair point I think Hendry , Higgins and Ronnie yes those 3 will be down as the 3 greatest

I think theres a good chance for Selby and robbo to overhaul Williams number of majors though

Selby could overhaul Williams in terms of the majors but he won't overtake him as a player. Selby won 4 rankers, Williams 18. That's a huge difference. I'd always put Williams above him. In his prime he was a different class.

But Robbo could maybe overtake him in terms of titles but he has to hurry. He has 10 rankers, and 3 majors, having won all of them once. He's got to get them all to 2 as quick as possible and win another 6-7 rankers.

I agree with you.

Doesn't matter if they win more majors, I doubt they'll win more rankers than Williams did. For me Williams will always be regarded higher than Selby and Robbo, and rightly so.

A peak Mark Williams would run rings round the likes of Selby and Robertson.

Call me set in my ways but in greatness terms I go by numbers.

Ronnie is welcome to the title of most naturally-talented player ever to play the game but that does not earn him the title of greatest player of all-time - that will continue to be held by Stephen Hendry until someone wins 8 titles.

My order of merit:-

Stephen Hendry (Seven World titles won in an incredibly talent-packed era and introduced shots to the sport that changed the art of break-building)

Steve Davis (Six World titles and highly consistent and dominant force of the 1980s. Okay so his gamestyle wasn't everyone's cup of tea but he still had the game to tame great talents such as Jimmy White and Alex Higgins which says a heck of a lot)

Ronnie O'Sullivan (Five World titles spread over more than a decade. He never achieved extended dominance that Davis and Hendry had but is surely the best potter the game has seen. Moments of mental flaws have stopped him being a more dominant force)

Holden Chinaski wrote:

Wildey wrote:Im struggling a bit with the fickleness here.


All ive heard All season how Dr Peters has made Ronnie the Complete Player and this season Ronnie has had one of his best ever seasons now that hes lost a World final hes not the bees knees i have been told he was and hes reached 3 out of his 6 world finals in a weak era.

Ronnie is much stronger now mentally and much more consistent than in those days. But when he was playing his very best in those days, like the 2005 Masters for example, he was playing a standard nobody has matched since.

But in those days Ronnie was not consistent, he lost to himself many times because of mental issues. So he's overall a better player now. But those times he played like a genius (2004, 2008 world champs, 2005 Masters...etc), that's the best snooker I've ever seen. But Ronnie played brilliant in 2012, 2013 and 2014 as well.

I always said the strongest era in snooker was from 1993 until 2008 or something like that.

Ive seen him play like a Genius this season just not consistently but who has certainly not Ronnie as you pointed out hes been inconsistent as i said fickleness the difference now is he fights through the bad patches these days Look how he started the Final session with a century and the commentators was saying how brilliant he was cueing but then Selby won the next 3 frames Ronnie can still turn it on and he did during the final But Selby has never been intimidated by him and that's why Selby won

Holden Chinaski wrote:

Caledonian Craig wrote:Call me set in my ways but in greatness terms I go by numbers.

Ronnie is welcome to the title of most naturally-talented player ever to play the game but that does not earn him the title of greatest player of all-time - that will continue to be held by Stephen Hendry until someone wins 8 titles.

My order of merit:-

Stephen Hendry (Seven World titles won in an incredibly talent-packed era and introduced shots to the sport that changed the art of break-building)

Steve Davis (Six World titles and highly consistent and dominant force of the 1980s. Okay so his gamestyle wasn't everyone's cup of tea but he still had the game to tame great talents such as Jimmy White and Alex Higgins which says a heck of a lot)

Ronnie O'Sullivan (Five World titles spread over more than a decade. He never achieved extended dominance that Davis and Hendry had but is surely the best potter the game has seen. Moments of mental flaws have stopped him being a more dominant force)

I would definitely add John Higgins to that list. And before Steve Davis in the eighties, Ray Reardon was dominating the seventies, so you could add him as well.

I didn't want to ramble on too much so stopped at top three (in my eyes). Obviously Reardon and Higgins would spring to mind next.

Snooker Overdrive wrote:

Richproc wrote:Seems strange that before some people were saying that this is the best version of Ronnie ever which I disagreed with I thought his peak game was between 2004 and 2008. He is much better mentally now but more inconsistent, and since he lost the world final there saying he is in decline. My view is he can still produce his best at times but is getting through some matches because he is playing against a lot of mental midgets and his better mental state allows him to compete better when not at his best. I think the world championship caught him out as he wasn't in great form and he was up against a player that wouldn't go away and Ronnie hasn't had this situation for a while.

I am one of these people who said this is the best ever Ronnie.

True, he had magnificent performances between 2004 and 2008 but he now has the consistency and mental strength. Why couldn't Ronnie defend the World Title in his so call peak years? Not because he was outplayed but because he crumbled under the pressure and got frustrated. Ronnie didn't lose this World Final, Selby won it. His safety game was too strong, Robertson also couldn't cope with it in the semis. No shame in that. Ronnie didn't lose the final because he wasn't scoring enough but because he lost the safety battles. Ronnie O'Sullivan won 14 Crucible matches in a row, only losing 2 (!!!) session in 3 years before this final. Unthinkable 10 years ago. Ronnie still can produce these superb peak performances, we saw one against Walden in the Masters.

Ronnie turned into a tough match player these last couple of years and that makes him the best ever O'Sullivan. The titles he won speak for themselves.

Yes SO I definately agree with you, but I would add that despite Ronnie not winning most of the satety battles he also didnt win many frames in 1 visit and his positional play was awful at times. Thats what cost him this title really, as opposed to 2012 and 2013 when he could rely on his brilliant positional play.

But taking that into consideration and saying (like some have here) that's signs of Ronnie going into decline doesnt make much sense really because after all this is only one tournament and Selby played brilliant match play snooker, against any other player I think Ronnie would have won that match to be honest. Plus like Holden has said Ronnie has had a terrific season and it was not long ago he hammered Selby in that Masters final, won the Welsh Open with that 147 and the CoC.

Now if, and only if in future tournaments Ronnie plays in his positional play is similar to what he did at this year's Worlds thats when we can start to say he's in a bit of decline. But honestly I don't think that will happen just yet, he still has a few more titles left in him, I think he can win 1 more Worlds title and match Davis, I would absolutely love that, Hendry's 7 always seemed out of reach and not winning this year makes that even more of a reality.But Ronnie doesnt have anything else to prove, but given he's never been in such a better place mental wise he will still be around for a few years more challenging and winning major titles, it's about as much as desire with him, because his game is all there, it's about making the most of it while he still can.