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Re: World Championship Final: Ronnie O'Sullivan v Mark Selby

Postby NNear » 03 May 2014 Read

Holden Chinaski wrote:
Alex0paul wrote:
NNear wrote:Ronnie O'Sullivan has/will have played in finals:

Higgins: 4x WC
Dott: 1xWC 2xRU
Carter: 2xRU
Selby: 2xFinalist
Hawkins: 1xFinalist

Hardly worth disparaging, is it. Not to mention that in the battle of the 'legends' Ronnie won the match. That's the only loss Higgins has in a WC final.


Dott wasn't a World Champion when he played him
Carter was in his first ranking final when he played him
Higgins was only a 1 time WC when he played him
Hawkins is a bog standard run of the mill top 20 player

Ronnie has also won 4 UK and 5 Masters titles you know. To win those he beat the likes of Hendry, Higgins, Ding and Selby.

People seem to forget this.


The counterargument held no water anyway, as I've just demonstrated.

Re: World Championship Final: Ronnie O'Sullivan v Mark Selby

Postby NNear » 03 May 2014 Read

Oh and Ken Doherty, also first final in his match vs Hendry, yet he won.

1xW 2xRU.


Who cares about the context at the time, it's rare to get a match like say for example right now Higgins and O'Sullivan reaching the final having an amazing amount of World Championships between them. The point is their opponents in the long haul proved to be worthy, consistent and strong World Championship contenders.

Re: World Championship Final: Ronnie O'Sullivan v Mark Selby

Postby Alex0paul » 03 May 2014 Read

NNear wrote:
Alex0paul wrote:
NNear wrote:Ronnie O'Sullivan has/will have played in finals:

Higgins: 4x WC
Dott: 1xWC 2xRU
Carter: 2xRU
Selby: 2xFinalist
Hawkins: 1xFinalist

Hardly worth disparaging, is it. Not to mention that in the battle of the 'legends' Ronnie won the match. That's the only loss Higgins has in a WC final.


Dott wasn't a World Champion when he played him
Carter was in his first ranking final when he played him
Higgins was only a 1 time WC when he played him
Hawkins is a bog standard run of the mill top 20 player


A predictable but pointless argument. The point is that they went on to prove their calibre and show they are respectable and high level, high calibre World Championship opposition.

Higgins faced a greener version of Selby, a green Trump, a 1x WC Ken and a 1x WC Murphy at the times of the matches. Ronnie played a 1xWC Higgins at the time of the match and is much better than Ken or Murphy ever were or have been at the time before or since. Ronnie won the match. You can play the context game with any champion. The argument fails.


Your post is pointless because at the time they hadn't achieved that. Thats like saying someone beating O'Sullivan when he was 9 years old is an incredible achievement because of what he went on to achieve.

Re: World Championship Final: Ronnie O'Sullivan v Mark Selby

Postby GJ » 03 May 2014 Read

Mark has timed his form perfectly.

I havnt seen alot of his matches but that's the best I have seen him play in ages.

Keep that form he will beat Ronnie.

Re: World Championship Final: Ronnie O'Sullivan v Mark Selby

Postby Holden Chinaski » 03 May 2014 Read

NNear wrote:I knew this weak counter was coming, so to reinforce my point, let's look at Hendry.

White: Nx Runner up depending on final
Nigel Bond ...................................................
Peter Ebdon: 1x WC 2xRU, at time Hendry beat him, also wasn't ever a finalist before.
Mark Williams: 2x WC 1xRU, also first final when Hendry beat him.

Don't bother mate. Ronnie has beaten every player out there and has won everything multiple times. He's made 12 maxi's and beat Hendry in the UK final when he was just 17. But for some people it will never be enough, because they dont like him.

Re: World Championship Final: Ronnie O'Sullivan v Mark Selby

Postby GJ » 03 May 2014 Read

AC or LT? wrote:Ronnie's career will come to an end on Monday night when he threatens to retire again after Selby roundly thumps him. Heck it might even happen by mid-Monday afternoon.



:lol:

Re: World Championship Final: Ronnie O'Sullivan v Mark Selby

Postby PLtheRef » 03 May 2014 Read

TABLE AFTER THE SEMI-FINALS - 30/31 MATCHES PLAYED
192 SAVOMILOSEVIC 27 - 1
192 WILDEY 24 - 5
190 CLOUD STRIFE 24 - 3
189 THECLEAVER 23 - 1
185 JMAL1 24 - 4
182 ALEX0PAUL 23 - 4
178 RANDAM05 WC 23 - 4

171 HOLDENCHINASKI 21 - 5
169 PLTHEREF 21 - 3
167 SNOOKER OVERDRIVE 22 - 2
167 SMART 21 - 3
164 SKULLMAN 22 - 3
164 ANDRE147 22 - 2
161 JADECHELSEA 20 - 3
160 SLOWJOE 21 - 3
150 SUNDAYGIRL 20 - 2
141 KOLOMPAR 18 - 3
137 CONORS9 18 - 0
136 VODKADIET 17 - 4
134 BORIS_THE_BUTCHER 18 - 1
130 NICE_SHOES_KEN 18 - 1
129 AC OR LT? 17 - 2
128 AYRSHIREBHOY 18 - 0
122 JDM375 16 - 3
117 DRLOG147 15 - 2
111 GJ 12 - 3
86 SNOOKY147 11 - 3
86 MEDHI99 10 - 1
66 GNOMY 9 - 0

This table includes the points given to those who predicted Mark Selby to reach the World Championships Final. As TheCleaver predicted both Ronnie O'Sullivan and Mark Selby to reach the World Championship Final, I have added the full 18 points to his tally

All entrants in bold type can still mathematically win the prediction contest. Therefore I am asking those entrants to PM their predictions to me in the interests of ensuring the contest is completely fair. Predictions will then be revealed tomorrow after the deadline has passed.

Never before have we had eight potential winners fight it out in the final of a World Championships. Best of Luck to all

Re: World Championship Final: Ronnie O'Sullivan v Mark Selby

Postby NNear » 03 May 2014 Read

Alex0paul wrote:
NNear wrote:
Alex0paul wrote:
NNear wrote:Ronnie O'Sullivan has/will have played in finals:

Higgins: 4x WC
Dott: 1xWC 2xRU
Carter: 2xRU
Selby: 2xFinalist
Hawkins: 1xFinalist

Hardly worth disparaging, is it. Not to mention that in the battle of the 'legends' Ronnie won the match. That's the only loss Higgins has in a WC final.


Dott wasn't a World Champion when he played him
Carter was in his first ranking final when he played him
Higgins was only a 1 time WC when he played him
Hawkins is a bog standard run of the mill top 20 player


A predictable but pointless argument. The point is that they went on to prove their calibre and show they are respectable and high level, high calibre World Championship opposition.

Higgins faced a greener version of Selby, a green Trump, a 1x WC Ken and a 1x WC Murphy at the times of the matches. Ronnie played a 1xWC Higgins at the time of the match and is much better than Ken or Murphy ever were or have been at the time before or since. Ronnie won the match. You can play the context game with any champion. The argument fails.


Your post is pointless because at the time they hadn't achieved that. Thats like saying someone beating O'Sullivan when he was 9 years old is an incredible achievement because of what he went on to achieve.


It isn't pointless, you just don't get it. Your contextual analysis can be applied to any of the champions. I just applied it to Hendry. He lost to a first time WC finalist Doherty at the time, beat first time finalists Nigel Bond (............................................), Peter Ebdon and Mark Williams, and kept beating up on Jimmy White who is a legendary player in his own right. If you only look at the matches at the time of them happening then the achievements look less impressive because the players haven't finished adding to their career accolades. You've offered up nothing useful to my reasonings other than to say that my ''post is pointless because at the time they hadn't achieved that'' which means nothing because it is not just applicable to Ronnie O'Sullivan.

Re: World Championship Final: Ronnie O'Sullivan v Mark Selby

Postby NNear » 03 May 2014 Read

Holden Chinaski wrote:Whatever happens in this final, Ronnie has done enough in his career to deserve a lot of respect. He's won it all, and beat all the greats.

I hope it will be a great final.


Sure. For example, I think Ronnie has a leading record against Hendry in ranking finals and also Triple Crown finals.

It's foolish to disparage Ronnie's achievements by also insulting his opponents.

Re: World Championship Final: Ronnie O'Sullivan v Mark Selby

Postby Holden Chinaski » 03 May 2014 Read

AC or LT? wrote:
GJ wrote:
AC or LT? wrote:Ronnie's career will come to an end on Monday night when he threatens to retire again after Selby roundly thumps him. Heck it might even happen by mid-Monday afternoon.



:lol:


Not quite sure what you found funny but whatever..

Probably the fact that your an idiot.

Re: World Championship Final: Ronnie O'Sullivan v Mark Selby

Postby NNear » 03 May 2014 Read

AC or LT? wrote:
GJ wrote:
AC or LT? wrote:Ronnie's career will come to an end on Monday night when he threatens to retire again after Selby roundly thumps him. Heck it might even happen by mid-Monday afternoon.



:lol:


Not quite sure what you found funny but whatever..


I think it was a laugh of maniacal glee. He's egging your statement on perhaps. :P

Re: World Championship Final: Ronnie O'Sullivan v Mark Selby

Postby Alex0paul » 03 May 2014 Read

NNear wrote:
Alex0paul wrote:
NNear wrote:
Alex0paul wrote:
NNear wrote:Ronnie O'Sullivan has/will have played in finals:

Higgins: 4x WC
Dott: 1xWC 2xRU
Carter: 2xRU
Selby: 2xFinalist
Hawkins: 1xFinalist

Hardly worth disparaging, is it. Not to mention that in the battle of the 'legends' Ronnie won the match. That's the only loss Higgins has in a WC final.


Dott wasn't a World Champion when he played him
Carter was in his first ranking final when he played him
Higgins was only a 1 time WC when he played him
Hawkins is a bog standard run of the mill top 20 player


A predictable but pointless argument. The point is that they went on to prove their calibre and show they are respectable and high level, high calibre World Championship opposition.

Higgins faced a greener version of Selby, a green Trump, a 1x WC Ken and a 1x WC Murphy at the times of the matches. Ronnie played a 1xWC Higgins at the time of the match and is much better than Ken or Murphy ever were or have been at the time before or since. Ronnie won the match. You can play the context game with any champion. The argument fails.


Your post is pointless because at the time they hadn't achieved that. Thats like saying someone beating O'Sullivan when he was 9 years old is an incredible achievement because of what he went on to achieve.


It isn't pointless, you just don't get it. Your contextual analysis can be applied to any of the champions. I just applied it to Hendry. He lost to a first time WC finalist Doherty at the time, beat first time finalists Nigel Bond (............................................), Peter Ebdon and Mark Williams, and kept beating up on Jimmy White who is a legendary player in his own right. If you only look at the matches at the time of them happening then the achievements look less impressive because the players haven't finished adding to their career accolades. You've offered up nothing useful to my reasonings other than to say that my ''post is pointless because at the time they hadn't achieved that'' which means nothing because is not just applicable to Ronnie O'Sullivan.


Basing a result of a match taking into context the future results of players is ridiculous beyond belief. At the time Dott did not have the experience of going to a final at the Crucible which made it a much easier match. When they next played in a similar length match Dott would have had that experience in his armoury and thus thrashed O'Sullivan 17-11. Ali Carter was in his first ranking final, he has no experience to fall back on at this point. Just because he reaches finals in the future or wins things has no bearing on the 2008 final at all.

Re: World Championship Final: Ronnie O'Sullivan v Mark Selby

Postby NNear » 03 May 2014 Read

No he isn't, he's missing the entire point, which is that the competition O'Sullivan has faced shouldn't be disparaged and was comparably strong to the likes of Higgins or Hendry's opposition. It doesn't matter if you look at the opponents achievements in retrospect or only purely at the time of the final occurring, the same result occurs, which is that if one is going to disparage Ronnie with snide remarks then they may as well do the same for any of the great legendary champions. Either disparage them all (would take a sad human being) or do what all those legends deserve, which is to respect their achievements, the difficulty of their achievements and the quality of their opposition.

Hats off to all those legendary champions and respect for their opponents.

Re: World Championship Final: Ronnie O'Sullivan v Mark Selby

Postby Alex0paul » 03 May 2014 Read

I am arguing your point about trying to big up O'Sullivan's achievements when its clear to all non biased fans that he has had it pretty easy in world finals.

O'Sullivan's opponents in finals seeding adds up to a commulative 59
Hendry's was 35 in his first 6

Re: World Championship Final: Ronnie O'Sullivan v Mark Selby

Postby Holden Chinaski » 03 May 2014 Read

GJ wrote:He's spot on

Take your blinkers off

I dont care about all that. A world championship is more than just a final.

Besides that Ronnie beat John Higgins in one world final and one Masters final, Stephen Hendry in 2 UK finals, Selby and Ding in Masters finals...etc What else is there to prove? The man has won 26 ranking titles FFS!

Re: World Championship Final: Ronnie O'Sullivan v Mark Selby

Postby Andre147 » 03 May 2014 Read

Holden Chinaski wrote:These endless discussions are pathetic. Good night.


They are, but Christ some here like Alex0Paul do love do discredit every Ronnie achievment. Like NNear rightly said, we can all play that game and discredit Hendry's achievements too.

Why don't some here just fully accept Ronnie's amazing achievemnts as ebing one of the greatest ever in this sport?

I know why, it's this feeling that when someone starts winning too much, in this case Ronnie in recent Worlds, they try everything in their power to discredit someone's achievments because basically for them they are winning too much. This is nothing new, happened with Davis in the 80s, Hendry in the 90s and now this <doh>

Just fully accept Ronnie's achievments ffs, and appreciate what a great player he is.

Re: World Championship Final: Ronnie O'Sullivan v Mark Selby

Postby vodkadiet » 03 May 2014 Read

Holden Chinaski wrote:
vodkadiet wrote:At least if O'Sullivan wins he has had to play a real player, and not Carter or Hawkins.

You mean Barry Hawkins who beat Selby in the 2013 world championship? Is that the one you're talking about?


Hawkins has no psychological issues playing Selby, but he does playing O'Sullivan, the same way Carter has. Carter and Hawkins are mental midgets, Selby isn't. Selby knows O'Sullivan can be beaten, and often is if a player stands up to him. This reason O'Sullivan has so much success is not only because he is very good, but almost as much because so many of his opponents are pathetic mentally.

If the match is close at the end then Selby will win.

Re: World Championship Final: Ronnie O'Sullivan v Mark Selby

Postby Andre147 » 03 May 2014 Read

Alex0paul wrote:I am arguing your point about trying to big up O'Sullivan's achievements when its clear to all non biased fans that he has had it pretty easy in world finals.

O'Sullivan's opponents in finals seeding adds up to a commulative 59
Hendry's was 35 in his first 6


Please check NNear's argument about playing that type of game you love to play, he can also easily discredit Hendry's achievmnents, just like I can. But unlike you I don't do that because I fully appreciate what a great player Hendry was, you obviously dont appreciate in the slighest how great a player Ronnie is with all those POINTLESS ARGUMENTS <doh>

Re: World Championship Final: Ronnie O'Sullivan v Mark Selby

Postby NNear » 03 May 2014 Read

It doesn't matter. Hendry faced one opponent again and again and owned him, which is to Hendry's credit, but that also has an effect on such a meaningless statistic because White was consistently ranked very highly but consistently made so many finals. It's a different circumstance and dynamic to the way Ronnie has won his titles, but I don't see either roads as particularly easier or harder than the others. When you compare there opponents regardless of their future achievements or achievements at the very time the final was played, one finds they are largely similar and comparable whether that be Hendry, Higgins, O'Sullivan or Davis.

Re: World Championship Final: Ronnie O'Sullivan v Mark Selby

Postby Alex0paul » 03 May 2014 Read

Andre147 PGC wrote:
Holden Chinaski wrote:These endless discussions are pathetic. Good night.


They are, but Christ some here like Alex0Paul do love do discredit every Ronnie achievment. Like NNear rightly said, we can all play that game and discredit Hendry's achievements too.

Why don't some here just fully accept Ronnie's amazing achievemnts as ebing one of the greatest ever in this sport?

I know why, it's this feeling that when someone starts winning too much, in this case Ronnie in recent Worlds, they try everything in their power to discredit someone's achievments because basically for them they are winning too much. This is nothing new, happened with Davis in the 80s, Hendry in the 90s and now this <doh>

Just fully accept Ronnie's achievments ffs, and appreciate what a great player he is.


I just find it sad when people go over the top about a performance like the 7-1 session against Bingham last year as "snooker from the gods" when essentially Bingham played useless and kept missing in amongst the balls leaving him an open table.

He isn't a genius, no sportsperson is a genius.
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