Post a reply

Ronnie’s the GOAT, But Not the GOAT You Were Looking For

Postby D4P

In the Bible’s New Testament, we are told the story of a man named Jesus who a few thousand years ago claimed to be the messiah and savior who would liberate the Jews and set them free from their captors. But the Jews largely rejected him because he didn’t fit their picture of what a savior should look and act like. He served others rather than requiring others to serve him. He didn’t fight against his enemies, but instead loved and prayed for them. He didn’t physically free the Jews, but instead offered them spiritual salvation. In short, he wasn’t the savior they were looking for.

In today’s world of sports, fans don’t look for a savior so much as they look for a GOAT, a player that checks all their boxes for being dubbed the Greatest of All-Time. In the sport of snooker, fans expect the GOAT to act a certain way and to achieve certain things. The GOAT should take interviews seriously and give responses that are respectful, polished, and filtered. The GOAT should avoid controversy and negative publicity. The GOAT should take every match seriously and try his hardest to win. The GOAT should be excited when he wins and disappointed when he loses. The GOAT should play in most of the events during the year and should always give 100% to every event he plays in. The GOAT should have more tournaments wins in his career than other players and above all, the GOAT should win the most World Snooker Championships (WSCs).

Ronnie O’Sullivan might not check any of those boxes or meet any of those expectations. Yet, there are many people in the sport who consider him to be the GOAT. How can that be? If Ronnie is the GOAT, he’s a bit like Jesus: He’s not the GOAT snooker fans were looking for.

If Ronnie has a defining characteristic, it is a need for autonomy. He needs to feel like he is living life according to his own rules and standards. He needs to decide for himself whether to give serious responses to interview questions or whether to talk instead like a robot or a bushman from Down Under. He needs to decide for himself whether his performance in a match was brilliant or rubbish. He needs to decide for himself whether he wants to give 100% or whether he’s just not in the mood to try his hardest. He needs to set his own tournament schedule to fit his lifestyle, rather than chasing Ranking Points from here to Timbuktu and back every week. And he needs to decide for himself which events he thinks are important and worthy of his time and effort, rather than being told by WorldSnooker or the fans that such and such event is the most important and counts more than any other.

When Ronnie is told that the WSC is the most important event and that every snooker player should want to win the WSC more than any other event, there is a fundamental part of Ronnie’s brain that rebels. He will decide which events are most important to him, thank you very much. He won’t be told by someone else which events he should value the most.

And therein lies the catch for Ronnie and his fans who want him to be considered the GOAT of snooker: Whenever Ronnie thinks about winning the WSC, he also thinks about how he has to conform to external expectations by investing 17 days’ worth of hard work into winning an event that other people think is important but that he has never really enjoyed or cared as much about as other people have. Trying to win the WSC makes Ronnie feel like he’s being bossed or controlled by other people, which is something that Ronnie simply won’t tolerate. He would rather quit and give up than be controlled by someone else.

All of which means that when Ronnie shows up at the WSC, he faces a conflict between wanting to win the event that he is playing in vs. not wanting to conform to the expectations that other people place on him. I think it’s fair to say that, more often than not throughout his career, Ronnie has chosen to avoid conforming even if it meant losing. And Ronnie has been happy making that choice.

Which leaves Ronnie fans in a bit of a quandary. We want him to win WSCs, and we want him to be unanimously considered the GOAT. But he simply refuses to conform to our expectations of what the GOAT should look like, which can leave us frustrated and disappointed.

The bottom line is that if you are going to be a Ronnie fan and if you want to be happy rather than frustrated and disappointed, you need to accept him as he is, rather than expecting him to be something he’s not. He’s never going to care about the WSC as much as everyone else does, and he’s probably never going to win it as many times as Hendry/Davis/Reardon have done. And he’s not going to care about that. You probably shouldn’t care about it, either.

In my opinion, Ronnie is the GOAT. He’s just not the GOAT that many people were looking for.

Re: Ronnie’s the GOAT, But Not the GOAT You Were Looking For

Postby Erza Scarlet

I said this last year that Ronnie needs to win a 6th WC to be the GOAT and still stick by it despite every other record he holds. I can't handwave a difference of 2 WC like that.

I also think it's not unreasonable at all to think he should have more than 5 WCs, especially after the last two years.
Last edited by Erza Scarlet on 23 Apr 2019, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Ronnie’s the GOAT, But Not the GOAT You Were Looking For

Postby Ash147

Holden Chinaski wrote:
Ash147 wrote:Hendry is the GOAT. 7>5.

I often say left wing and right wing people are equally idiotic and are the same in many ways. You prove this because you remind me of Vodka.


I'm not right wing. I'm a Libertarian. <doh>

Re: Ronnie’s the GOAT, But Not the GOAT You Were Looking For

Postby Holden Chinaski

Ash147 wrote:
Holden Chinaski wrote:
Ash147 wrote:Hendry is the GOAT. 7>5.

I often say left wing and right wing people are equally idiotic and are the same in many ways. You prove this because you remind me of Vodka.


I'm not right wing. I'm a Libertarian. <doh>

A youtube libertarian, like so many these days.. You come across as a right-libertarian.

Re: Ronnie’s the GOAT, But Not the GOAT You Were Looking For

Postby Ash147

Holden Chinaski wrote:
Ash147 wrote:
Holden Chinaski wrote:
Ash147 wrote:Hendry is the GOAT. 7>5.

I often say left wing and right wing people are equally idiotic and are the same in many ways. You prove this because you remind me of Vodka.


I'm not right wing. I'm a Libertarian. <doh>

A youtube libertarian, like so many these days.. You come across as a right-libertarian.


I watch YouTube videos, but I have no idea what a 'YouTube Libertarian' is. There's also no such thing as a left or right Libertarian. You're either a Libertarian, or you're not.

Re: Ronnie’s the GOAT, But Not the GOAT You Were Looking For

Postby Ck147

Cloud Strife wrote:
SnookerFan wrote:He's the greatest Gotham needs, not the greatest they deserve.

Grrr.... Dark Knight.


:anyone:


Batman, quote from the middle film of Bale/Nolan trilogy. Great film btw.

Re: Ronnie’s the GOAT, But Not the GOAT You Were Looking For

Postby Holden Chinaski

Ash147 wrote:
Holden Chinaski wrote:
Ash147 wrote:
Holden Chinaski wrote:
Ash147 wrote:Hendry is the GOAT. 7>5.

I often say left wing and right wing people are equally idiotic and are the same in many ways. You prove this because you remind me of Vodka.


I'm not right wing. I'm a Libertarian. <doh>

A youtube libertarian, like so many these days.. You come across as a right-libertarian.


I watch YouTube videos, but I have no idea what a 'YouTube Libertarian' is. There's also no such thing as a left or right Libertarian. You're either a Libertarian, or you're not.

Don't worry about it. I'm sorry I started talking politics.. Lets move on. Yes Hendry was great. Best I've seen is Ronnie.

Re: Ronnie’s the GOAT, But Not the GOAT You Were Looking For

Postby D4P

I would add that Ronnie is also a introvert who has never been 100% comfortable with all of the attention that comes with winning. He's not someone who enjoys basking in the public spotlight of success: He's more at ease running through a forest somewhere or cooking up a fancy meal in the privacy of his own kitchen.

In many ways he fits the stereotype of the "tortured artist", who has been given a great gift or skill but is conflicted regarding whether/how to share it with the world. He enjoys using his gift and wants to make other people happy in the process, but isn't comfortable "putting himself out there" and subjecting himself to scrutiny/judgment/critique. For Ronnie, playing competitive snooker in public probably feels like he's exposing some part of himself that is private and vulnerable that he would rather keep hidden...

Re: Ronnie’s the GOAT, But Not the GOAT You Were Looking For

Postby Cloud Strife

Ash147 wrote:
Holden Chinaski wrote:
Ash147 wrote:
Holden Chinaski wrote:
Ash147 wrote:Hendry is the GOAT. 7>5.

I often say left wing and right wing people are equally idiotic and are the same in many ways. You prove this because you remind me of Vodka.


I'm not right wing. I'm a Libertarian. <doh>

A youtube libertarian, like so many these days.. You come across as a right-libertarian.


I watch YouTube videos, but I have no idea what a 'YouTube Libertarian' is. There's also no such thing as a left or right Libertarian. You're either a Libertarian, or you're not.


RIP James Wattana

Re: Ronnie’s the GOAT, But Not the GOAT You Were Looking For

Postby vodkadiet1

Stephen Hendry is the GOAT. He proved that when he won his 7th World Title when the pressure was at its greatest and the semi final line up at The Crucible was its strongest ever.

O'Sullivan has continually bottled it over the last 6 years because he hasn't coped with the pressure.

And please don't tell me about this 19 majors nonsense. There is only one major in snooker and it isn't The UK!

Re: Ronnie’s the GOAT, But Not the GOAT You Were Looking For

Postby Ash147

vodkadiet1 wrote:Stephen Hendry is the GOAT. He proved that when he won his 7th World Title when the pressure was at its greatest and the semi final line up at The Crucible was its strongest ever.

O'Sullivan has continually bottled it over the last 6 years because he hasn't coped with the pressure.

And please don't tell me about this 19 majors nonsense. There is only one major in snooker and it isn't The UK!


:goodpost:

I preferred it when we disagreed.

Re: Ronnie’s the GOAT, But Not the GOAT You Were Looking For

Postby TheRocket

vodkadiet1 wrote:Stephen Hendry is the GOAT. He proved that when he won his 7th World Title when the pressure was at its greatest and the semi final line up at The Crucible was its strongest ever.

O'Sullivan has continually bottled it over the last 6 years because he hasn't coped with the pressure.

And please don't tell me about this 19 majors nonsense. There is only one major in snooker and it isn't The UK!


vodka I respect your opinion. And I agree hes bottled it over the last 6 years.

But I think thats also because of the fact he's past his prime. We know how bad a past his prime Hendry was when he was under pressure.

The younger O'Sullivan was a lot better handling the pressure at the Crucible. And he certainly wouldnt lose to a weak journeyman.

I still have to agree though. Ronnie O'Sullivan is not the greatest. Ability-wise yes but it needs more than that

Re: Ronnie’s the GOAT, But Not the GOAT You Were Looking For

Postby vodkadiet1

TheRocket wrote:
vodkadiet1 wrote:Stephen Hendry is the GOAT. He proved that when he won his 7th World Title when the pressure was at its greatest and the semi final line up at The Crucible was its strongest ever.

O'Sullivan has continually bottled it over the last 6 years because he hasn't coped with the pressure.

And please don't tell me about this 19 majors nonsense. There is only one major in snooker and it isn't The UK!


vodka I respect your opinion. And I agree hes bottled it over the last 6 years.

But I think thats also because of the fact he's past his prime. We know how bad a past his prime Hendry was when he was under pressure.

The younger O'Sullivan was a lot better handling the pressure at the Crucible. And he certainly wouldnt lose to a weak journeyman.

I still have to agree though. Ronnie O'Sullivan is not the greatest. Ability-wise yes but it needs more than that


Well said. You are probably the most balanced O'Sullivan supporter on this or any other snooker forum.

O'Sullivan's attitude has been all wrong. A fortnight ago he said "I would rather lose in the first round than lose in the final. To get all the way to the final and lose is the worst thing".

Re: Ronnie’s the GOAT, But Not the GOAT You Were Looking For

Postby Cloud Strife

After today, I would have to agree with Vodkadiet TBH. The gap of 2 between 7 and 5 is just too much to ignore. Doesn't really matter what the competition was, that is neither here nor there. Fact is Hendry has more world titles than Ronnie does, that is the bottom line.

And I think Ronnie would say the same. He'll be the first one to admit he's bottled it at the Crucible many times when it looked like he could challenge Hendry's record.

Re: Ronnie’s the GOAT, But Not the GOAT You Were Looking For

Postby vodkadiet1

Cloud Strife wrote:After today, I would have to agree with Vodkadiet TBH. The gap of 2 between 7 and 5 is just too much to ignore. Doesn't really matter what the competition was, that is neither here nor there. Fact is Hendry has more world titles than Ronnie does, that is the bottom line.


Very balanced point of view Cloud.

<cool>

Re: Ronnie’s the GOAT, But Not the GOAT You Were Looking For

Postby Holden Chinaski

Cloud Strife wrote:After today, I would have to agree with Vodkadiet TBH. The gap of 2 between 7 and 5 is just too much to ignore. Doesn't really matter what the competition was, that is neither here nor there. Fact is Hendry has more world titles than Ronnie does, that is the bottom line.

So what? In many sports the one with the most world titles isn't considerd the greatest. Ronnie had far greater opposition. He'll have the most ranking titles soon, that's for sure.

Re: Ronnie’s the GOAT, But Not the GOAT You Were Looking For

Postby Cloud Strife

Holden Chinaski wrote:
Cloud Strife wrote:After today, I would have to agree with Vodkadiet TBH. The gap of 2 between 7 and 5 is just too much to ignore. Doesn't really matter what the competition was, that is neither here nor there. Fact is Hendry has more world titles than Ronnie does, that is the bottom line.

So what? In many sports the one with the most world titles isn't considerd the greatest. Ronnie had far greater opposition. He'll have the most ranking titles soon, that's for sure.


I would love to agree with you, and I do believe Ronnie has played snooker to a standard nobody has ever reached, but that's not really the same as being the greatest, is it?

Ronnie's the best, yes. The greatest, no. The important stat of all is simply too difficult to brush off.

7>5

Re: Ronnie’s the GOAT, But Not the GOAT You Were Looking For

Postby Iranu

Cloud Strife wrote:After today, I would have to agree with Vodkadiet TBH. The gap of 2 between 7 and 5 is just too much to ignore. Doesn't really matter what the competition was, that is neither here nor there. Fact is Hendry has more world titles than Ronnie does, that is the bottom line.

And I think Ronnie would say the same. He'll be the first one to admit he's bottled it at the Crucible many times when it looked like he could challenge Hendry's record.

One match shouldn’t change your opinion of who the GOAT is, Cloud.

I know why you say it but in reality nothing’s changed in the last two days.

Re: Ronnie’s the GOAT, But Not the GOAT You Were Looking For

Postby Erza Scarlet

I hate Vodkadiet but he is right and this loss has given more perspective. 2 World championships cannot be ignored and that's the holy grail of Snooker.

Just having 2 WCs is an all time great career in itself.

Just imagine when we're older and some young fans start comparing a new player against Ronnie. I bet we'll also use Ronnie's accomplishments to back him up.


   

cron