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Slow Play

Postby James Bentley

It was probably a couple of years ago that I saw Barry Hearn going on about how he was going to crack down on slow players. I wasn't sure who he meant at the time (although Peter Ebdon was still active at the time), but since he mentioned it, I've been looking more closely. I think the suggestion was that 30 seconds would be the limit. Seems fair enough, I guess.

Until yesterday, I thought it was just another Hearn-thing, something that could safely be ignored. But...Lee Walker needs some sort of sanction. He was averaging 36 seconds a shot for most of his match against crafty Ken (who was averaging about 20 seconds, craftily) and it was really noticeable how slow Walker was. I don't like interventions but surely, something should be done here?

Re: Slow Play

Postby SnookerFan

Did anything ever come of this?

Did Hearn ever penalise anybody for consistent slow play?

Re: Slow Play

Postby chengdufan

Most of the slow players did speed up a fair bit I think. Rory McLeod and Rod Lawler noticeably made an effort.
I think they went for more of a name and shame approach by publishing the average shot times, rather than fines. I might be wrong though.

Re: Slow Play

Postby James Bentley

I'm pretty sure he didn't, because he coudn't find any (at the time, Ebdon was retiring anyway), But, as I said above, Lee Walker is a prime example of somebody who needs to be told to get a move on. Nobody needs to take that long on a shot.

Re: Slow Play

Postby lhpirnie

James Bentley wrote:I'm pretty sure he didn't, because he coudn't find any (at the time, Ebdon was retiring anyway), But, as I said above, Lee Walker is a prime example of somebody who needs to be told to get a move on. Nobody needs to take that long on a shot.

Lee Walker suffers from chronic health problems. The referees and opponents are aware of it. In general, I think the AST is unreliable. What really slows the matches down is negative or just bad play. If they can't (or won't) pot them, the frames drag on... There are quite a lot of older players who stay on the tour for years by closing down the game, and trying to frustrate their opponent.

Re: Slow Play

Postby cupotee

i watched some of walkers match against doherty yesterday , didn't see any slow play at all , he's just a good match player , nothing more to his case really .

Re: Slow Play

Postby The_Abbott

Lee Walker says his back is feeling better at the moment but it takes him 30 seconds to get into position these days. Some players retire with such injuries but Walker feels he wants to carry on as long as he can play.

Re: Slow Play

Postby James Bentley

I'm quite prepared to say that I'm wrong here. I'm wrong about a lot of things. But Lee Walker needs some sort of attention. He's significantly slower than any other player on the tour. Pretty much everyone else is fine. I know that some have said that it's not something they notice, but it's very noticeable to me.

Oh god I'm turning into Barry Hearn. That is my nightmare.

Re: Slow Play

Postby Running side

James Bentley wrote:It was probably a couple of years ago that I saw Barry Hearn going on about how he was going to crack down on slow players. I wasn't sure who he meant at the time (although Peter Ebdon was still active at the time), but since he mentioned it, I've been looking more closely. I think the suggestion was that 30 seconds would be the limit. Seems fair enough, I guess.

Until yesterday, I thought it was just another Hearn-thing, something that could safely be ignored. But...Lee Walker needs some sort of sanction. He was averaging 36 seconds a shot for most of his match against crafty Ken (who was averaging about 20 seconds, craftily) and it was really noticeable how slow Walker was. I don't like interventions but surely, something should be done here?

Agree, seems to be creeping back, slow play,gamesmanship and constant leaving area after every frame. Once the balls are set both players must be ready to play.If this continues the game as a tv audience selling point will suffer. Grinds my gears.

Re: Slow Play

Postby D4P

Pinches and Walker both have ASTs over 30 for the season

Re: Slow Play

Postby SnookerFan

D4P wrote:Pinches and Walker both have ASTs over 30 for the season


The name and shame hasn't worked.

Re: Slow Play

Postby Iranu

I’m sure there were far more players over 30 seconds when it first started getting published.

Re: Slow Play

Postby Prop

If Lee Walker has a legitimate medical excuse, fair enough. But I seem to remember he’s always been painfully slow. It’d be interesting to know the difference in his AST between pre-injury and post. I’m guessing it’d be negligible.

Re: Slow Play

Postby Prop

37 seconds and 32 between Walker and Bond respectively, as we speak.

Re: Slow Play

Postby vodkadiet1

Walker should be sanctioned.If his match with Bond goes to the final frame it will finish about 3am.

Re: Slow Play

Postby The_Abbott

SnookerFan wrote:
D4P wrote:Pinches and Walker both have ASTs over 30 for the season


The name and shame hasn't worked.


They don't care because everyone knows who they are anyway. They still get paid. Thats the only way to change things is to have a financial penalty but then you'll get Walker taking WST to a tribunal on medical grounds.

Slow play is here to stay for those that want to play slow.

Re: Slow Play

Postby James Bentley

The_Abbott wrote:
SnookerFan wrote:
D4P wrote:Pinches and Walker both have ASTs over 30 for the season


The name and shame hasn't worked.


They don't care because everyone knows who they are anyway. They still get paid. Thats the only way to change things is to have a financial penalty but then you'll get Walker taking WST to a tribunal on medical grounds.

Slow play is here to stay for those that want to play slow.


Yeah, I think that's it really. There aren't all that many slow players around; we all know who they are because they've been at it for years now and I think the authorities - despite all Hearn's big talk - are happy to let them get on with it as long as it's not disruptive. Plus, as you say, if there's grounds for legal action, they'll steer well clear of that.

I wasn't previously aware that Walker had medical grounds for being slow though. He's always been slow. And he certainly doesn't carry himself like someone with a back problem. His slowness problem is in his mind, not his body.

Re: Slow Play

Postby Iranu

I believe that Walker has a back problem. But he’s also been very slow for as long as I’ve been aware of speed of play.

Re: Slow Play

Postby Deewee

The name and shame clearly worked. Back then there were quite a few players over 30 seconds a shot, now only two

Re: Slow Play

Postby Prop

Regarding the legal mess that would come from penalising slow play, I wonder if they could flip it on its head and offer a ‘bonus’ for faster play, dressed up in different terms. 90% of the tour would happen to achieve the bonus, and if Walker etc didn’t, well they’re not exactly being sanctioned or penalised - they’re just not being awarded a bonus.

Re: Slow Play

Postby The_Abbott

Prop wrote:Regarding the legal mess that would come from penalising slow play, I wonder if they could flip it on its head and offer a ‘bonus’ for faster play, dressed up in different terms. 90% of the tour would happen to achieve the bonus, and if Walker etc didn’t, well they’re not exactly being sanctioned or penalised - they’re just not being awarded a bonus.



Ronnie to ref "whats the bonus for fast play?"
Ref: £2.50
Ronnie starts playing like Ebdon.

Re: Slow Play

Postby Prop

The_Abbott wrote:
Prop wrote:Regarding the legal mess that would come from penalising slow play, I wonder if they could flip it on its head and offer a ‘bonus’ for faster play, dressed up in different terms. 90% of the tour would happen to achieve the bonus, and if Walker etc didn’t, well they’re not exactly being sanctioned or penalised - they’re just not being awarded a bonus.



Ronnie to ref "whats the bonus for fast play?"
Ref: £2.50
Ronnie starts playing like Ebdon.


<laugh>

Re: Slow Play

Postby Juddernaut88

The_Abbott wrote:
Prop wrote:Regarding the legal mess that would come from penalising slow play, I wonder if they could flip it on its head and offer a ‘bonus’ for faster play, dressed up in different terms. 90% of the tour would happen to achieve the bonus, and if Walker etc didn’t, well they’re not exactly being sanctioned or penalised - they’re just not being awarded a bonus.



Ronnie to ref "whats the bonus for fast play?"
Ref: £2.50
Ronnie starts playing like Ebdon.


rofl

Re: Slow Play

Postby lhpirnie

Prop wrote:Regarding the legal mess that would come from penalising slow play, I wonder if they could flip it on its head and offer a ‘bonus’ for faster play, dressed up in different terms. 90% of the tour would happen to achieve the bonus, and if Walker etc didn’t, well they’re not exactly being sanctioned or penalised - they’re just not being awarded a bonus.

My approach would be to make most tournaments essentially invitational. Slow or negative players wouldn't be invited to all the best tournaments unless they were very good.

Re: Slow Play

Postby Wildey

Prop wrote:Regarding the legal mess that would come from penalising slow play, I wonder if they could flip it on its head and offer a ‘bonus’ for faster play, dressed up in different terms. 90% of the tour would happen to achieve the bonus, and if Walker etc didn’t, well they’re not exactly being sanctioned or penalised - they’re just not being awarded a bonus.

Play can't be contrived it has to happen at a natural pace. If a ref feels a player is out of character slow then they can warn them.

Some needs more time than others to process shots.

There's £5,000 on every match here some haven't earned that much all season there's massive financial pressures on players.

Re: Slow Play

Postby Wildey

And let's be honest had there been Shot Clocks in the 80s and early 90s over half the field would easily be over 30 seconds a shot Snooker today is miles quicker than it used to be.

Re: Slow Play

Postby chengdufan

Wildey wrote:
Prop wrote:Regarding the legal mess that would come from penalising slow play, I wonder if they could flip it on its head and offer a ‘bonus’ for faster play, dressed up in different terms. 90% of the tour would happen to achieve the bonus, and if Walker etc didn’t, well they’re not exactly being sanctioned or penalised - they’re just not being awarded a bonus.

Play can't be contrived it has to happen at a natural pace. If a ref feels a player is out of character slow then they can warn them.

Some needs more time than others to process shots.

There's £5,000 on every match here some haven't earned that much all season there's massive financial pressures on players.

:goodpost:

And I think we should trust the refs a bit more in them using their judgement on warnings. They have to be sure it is deliberate

Re: Slow Play

Postby SteveJJ

And now theres only a couple of players over 30 seconds then you can say the naming and shaming of players has worked without the need to fine players. If 30 secs is the defined cut off for slow play then nothing more needs doing currently if 2 out of 128 players are an issue. I'm sure we can live with that.

Re: Slow Play

Postby James Bentley

SteveJJ wrote:And now theres only a couple of players over 30 seconds then you can say the naming and shaming of players has worked without the need to fine players. If 30 secs is the defined cut off for slow play then nothing more needs doing currently if 2 out of 128 players are an issue. I'm sure we can live with that.

Yeah, I guess it's not really a problem. It was just especially noticeable in the Doherty-Walker match because one player was taking almost twice as long as the other.


I wonder how long Fergal O'Brien took per shot in that infamous two hour frame with Dave Gilbert? Cuetracker doesn't have average shot time for that match.

Re: Slow Play

Postby The_Abbott

Wildey wrote:And let's be honest had there been Shot Clocks in the 80s and early 90s over half the field would easily be over 30 seconds a shot Snooker today is miles quicker than it used to be.


Thats where snooker's 'boring' label came from. Watching Griffiths and Thorburn taking minutes for each shot