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Re: World Championship Final: Ronnie O'Sullivan v Mark Selby

Postby Andy Spark

Skullman wrote:And he was being lauded as being the greatest player ever after that win by Davis, which seemed silly at the time and downright laughable now (in terms of achievements).

Many people consider Ronnie the greatest ever with good reason, with current form he has still won 3 of the last 5 majors he's contested. Also 14 majors and 5 World Championships in the most modern era (eras are subjective but as time goes on the 1990's will inevitably fail to qualify as the "modern era") is a current record.

Re: World Championship Final: Ronnie O'Sullivan v Mark Selby

Postby Cloud Strife

Andy Spark wrote:For what it's worth I believe that this is the beginning of age related decline for O'Sullivan. The classic signs were there. :-( It will be long drawn out, there will be moments of title wins, maybe major wins, but it's now a general downward path. :-(


Ronnie's decline started a long time ago. Don't let the titles fool you. He's in a much better place mentally, and that is what has allowed him to compete much better than in the past.

Re: World Championship Final: Ronnie O'Sullivan v Mark Selby

Postby Andy Spark

Cloud Strife wrote:
Andy Spark wrote:For what it's worth I believe that this is the beginning of age related decline for O'Sullivan. The classic signs were there. :-( It will be long drawn out, there will be moments of title wins, maybe major wins, but it's now a general downward path. :-(


Ronnie's decline started a long time ago. Don't let the titles fool you. He's in a much better place mentally, and that is what has allowed him to compete much better than in the past.

If he's competing better then he isn't on the decline. Also his peak performance sessions are every bit as good.

Re: World Championship Final: Ronnie O'Sullivan v Mark Selby

Postby vodkadiet

Andy Spark wrote:
Skullman wrote:And he was being lauded as being the greatest player ever after that win by Davis, which seemed silly at the time and downright laughable now (in terms of achievements).

Many people consider Ronnie the greatest ever with good reason, with current form he has still won 3 of the last 5 majors he's contested. Also 14 majors and 5 World Championships in the most modern era (eras are subjective but as time goes on the 1990's will inevitably fail to qualify as the "modern era") is a current record.


In 20 years time the 2010s will fail to qualify as the current era.

Re: World Championship Final: Ronnie O'Sullivan v Mark Selby

Postby Andy Spark

Actually, maybe I am being too pessimistic. I'm judging it on one tournament and even that only had a few classic signs of age related decline. For example 97% pot success and back to back centuries at a time of the utmost pressure when 11-11 in round two! That is more of a sign of someone at their absolute peak, the aging player is said to feel the tension more, well Ronnie didn't feel it there. There could well be another explanation for his less consistently good performances during this years Championship, we'll know more in a years time.

Re: World Championship Final: Ronnie O'Sullivan v Mark Selby

Postby Andy Spark

vodkadiet wrote:
Andy Spark wrote:
Skullman wrote:And he was being lauded as being the greatest player ever after that win by Davis, which seemed silly at the time and downright laughable now (in terms of achievements).

Many people consider Ronnie the greatest ever with good reason, with current form he has still won 3 of the last 5 majors he's contested. Also 14 majors and 5 World Championships in the most modern era (eras are subjective but as time goes on the 1990's will inevitably fail to qualify as the "modern era") is a current record.


In 20 years time the 2010s will fail to qualify as the current era.

Exactly! That's why the future era players won't necessarily have to beat 5 World titles for the GOAT accolade and it's also why many people say now that Ronnie doesn't necessarily have to beat 7.

Re: World Championship Final: Ronnie O'Sullivan v Mark Selby

Postby vodkadiet

Andy Spark wrote:
vodkadiet wrote:
Andy Spark wrote:
Skullman wrote:And he was being lauded as being the greatest player ever after that win by Davis, which seemed silly at the time and downright laughable now (in terms of achievements).

Many people consider Ronnie the greatest ever with good reason, with current form he has still won 3 of the last 5 majors he's contested. Also 14 majors and 5 World Championships in the most modern era (eras are subjective but as time goes on the 1990's will inevitably fail to qualify as the "modern era") is a current record.


In 20 years time the 2010s will fail to qualify as the current era.

Exactly! That's why the future era players won't necessarily have to beat 5 World titles for the GOAT accolade and it's also why many people say now that Ronnie doesn't necessarily have to beat 7.


The G.O.A.T. accolade is just a matter of opinion that really carries no weight.

-Achievements outweigh opinion every time- Clive Everton

Re: World Championship Final: Ronnie O'Sullivan v Mark Selby

Postby vodkadiet

If O'Sullivan wins 8 World titles his fans will say "Yes, he has done it. That proves he is the G.O.A.T." If he doesn't get to 8 world titles or even 7, they just claim he is the best anyway, just because it suits them.

O'Sullivan stated he wanted 8 World Titles because he knows in his mind this is what is required to genuinely going down as the greatest.

Re: World Championship Final: Ronnie O'Sullivan v Mark Selby

Postby GJ

The way I see it is that the criteria for GOAT is pretty simple.


in tennis its most slams in modern era

That's currently Federer


In snooker its most world titles in modern era

That's currently Hendry

Re: World Championship Final: Ronnie O'Sullivan v Mark Selby

Postby vodkadiet

GJ wrote:The way I see it is that the criteria for GOAT is pretty simple.


in tennis its most slams in modern era

That's currently Federer


In snooker its most world titles in modern era

That's currently Hendry


Spot on GJ.

:hatoff:

Re: World Championship Final: Ronnie O'Sullivan v Mark Selby

Postby GJ

Wildey wrote:The way i see it is this subject is boring, pointless and going round in circles.



Fair point mate

But the criteria above requires no more debate its clear and simple.

Re: World Championship Final: Ronnie O'Sullivan v Mark Selby

Postby Andy Spark

Wildey wrote:The way i see it is this subject is boring, pointless and going round in circles.

Boring? If that were genuinely perceived as boring then it wouldn't be discussed so much by so many at whatever level of influence and power in snooker.


Pointless? If it were genuinely pointless then no snooker player would strive to be the greatest.

Going round in circles? In the short term I agree. However, it's important to remember that in the long term it moves because World Championship victories tick along as do eras. If Ronnie won another world title it would move again. It would also move if a new player won 3 or 4 in say the next 15 years.

Re: World Championship Final: Ronnie O'Sullivan v Mark Selby

Postby Andy Spark

vodkadiet wrote:I was amazed to find that O'Sullivan was only 9/4 to win next year's Championships. Robertson at 8/1 looks the value.

The bookie's don't want to make the same mistake that they made last year with Ronnie. They got away with it when Ronnie didn't win at the last gasp, but they know they made a mistake with their initial price and they were running scared. I took their money because they were trying to diminish their liability by giving 18/1 on Hawkins at 2-6 down and 5/1 Selby when 7-10 down. I made a nice tidy profit in the end when Selby won, profiting from their mistake. :chuckle:

Re: World Championship Final: Ronnie O'Sullivan v Mark Selby

Postby Holden Chinaski

GJ wrote:Rocket

My top 4 of modern game

Hendry
Davis
Ronnie
Higgins

If your criteria is who has the most world titles in the modern era, than by that logic you must put Ray Reardon before Ronnie. Ray has won 6 world titles, all in the modern era...

Like Wild said, this goat discussion is pointless and will go around in circles forever....

Re: World Championship Final: Ronnie O'Sullivan v Mark Selby

Postby Andre147

Holden Chinaski wrote:
GJ wrote:Rocket

My top 4 of modern game

Hendry
Davis
Ronnie
Higgins

If your criteria is who has the most world titles in the modern era, than by that logic you must put Ray Reardon before Ronnie. Ray has won 6 world titles, all in the modern era...

Like Wild said, this goat discussion is pointless and will go around in circles forever....


It is yeah, one could value most titles, but another could value total diferent aspects like what a player has contributed to the global expansion of the game, etc. For instance in this case Alex Higgins would be right up there in the game given what he contributed to what we see in the game today as he was indeed the first real attacking player.

Re: World Championship Final: Ronnie O'Sullivan v Mark Selby

Postby Andy Spark

Holden Chinaski wrote:
GJ wrote:Rocket

My top 4 of modern game

Hendry
Davis
Ronnie
Higgins

If your criteria is who has the most world titles in the modern era, than by that logic you must put Ray Reardon before Ronnie. Ray has won 6 world titles, all in the modern era...

Like Wild said, this goat discussion is pointless and will go around in circles forever....

Not necessarily, it's going round in circles a bit I agree but it also moves gradually over time. Only around 20% considered Ronnie the greatest four years ago, now it's more like 50%. A clear swing.

Re: World Championship Final: Ronnie O'Sullivan v Mark Selby

Postby Andy Spark

masterdoctorgenius wrote:I am the opinion that both higgins and ronnie still have wc titles in them. If they aplly themselves they could share the next four

Ronnie may do, but don't think Higgins has much chance, he's struggling to win anything at the moment and it's not like Ronnie a few years ago who just wasn't bothering to enter much.

Re: World Championship Final: Ronnie O'Sullivan v Mark Selby

Postby masterdoctorgenius

some are saying this defeat will have a long term affect on ronnie. Why should it?

ronnie lost big matches from well infront and also won big matches from behind.

Master 04, 06 are good examples but he fought back the following years. yes, his unbeaten record in WC is not intact anymore. but you cant have them all.

He will win at least one more. but he has nothing to prove anymore.

it will be interesting to see how selby will feel in the hunted position. now everybody wants him beat more than before.

Re: World Championship Final: Ronnie O'Sullivan v Mark Selby

Postby Wildey

God im going to do this for one last time

1 Ronnie O'Sullivan (Longevity playing at a high standard)
2 Stephen Hendry (Level of play he produced on a consistent level has never been equaled)
3 John Higgins (Steve Davis like tactics and Hendry like scorer but less attacking)
4 Steve Davis (Master Tactician)
5 Mark Williams (for a 6 year period between 1998 and 2003 he was Better than Ronnie and Higgins)

its much harder putting the players from 6 down in Order but players in the mix for me to finish off the top 10

Neil Robertson
Ding Junhui
Jimmy White
Mark Selby
Ray Reardon


My decision is not based on Tournaments won and it never was. up until this season i had Hendry top and Ronnie second but during this season for me Ronnie has just edged Stephen by a whisker.

COULD WE ALL MOVE ON