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Re: Tied frame

Postby Badsnookerplayer

Got it - so the player in stroke has the choice whether to play the black or whether to claim the frame.

Thanks Aces

Re: Tied frame

Postby sootywooty

Hi! again All! I had a game yesterday when my opponent was 7pts behind after i had potted the blue and pink, and then i missed the black all together and went in one of the top pockets because of mainly close to the cush cueing. So now the scores are level and then one of my mates said the black is not respotted and stays put because was not an in off and i lost because my opponent potted the black which was very close to the pocket.

What is the correct rule on this please! Thanks for any help.

Re: Tied frame

Postby Badsnookerplayer

Black stays where it is I am afraid.

It is only a re-spot if the black is potted to tie the frame.

(There is some rule about fouls on the black being final so it is possible I am wrong. The rules are quite easy to find and I will try to have a look later).

Re: Tied frame

Postby sootywooty

Ok Thanks Alot!! Yes i was thinking that because it is yet to be potted, and if in off it is the same i would imagine because the black has yet to go down.

I will have to improve my off the cush cueing maybe not choking down enough to allow for the small amount of the cue showing, plus was the lenght of the table shoot also.

Re: Tied frame

Postby Badsnookerplayer

sootywooty wrote:Ok Thanks Alot!! Yes i was thinking that because it is yet to be potted, and if in off it is the same i would imagine because the black has yet to go down.

I will have to improve my off the cush cueing maybe not choking down enough to allow for the small amount of the cue showing, plus was the lenght of the table shoot also.

Yes. Raising the butt of the cue slightly helps me on those shots.
Good luck.

Re: Tied frame

Postby sootywooty

Thanks Alot!! and Good Luck!! to you as well.

Re: Tied frame

Postby acesinc

sootywooty wrote:Hi! again All! I had a game yesterday when my opponent was 7pts behind after i had potted the blue and pink, and then i missed the black all together and went in one of the top pockets because of mainly close to the cush cueing. So now the scores are level and then one of my mates said the black is not respotted and stays put because was not an in off and i lost because my opponent potted the black which was very close to the pocket.

What is the correct rule on this please! Thanks for any help.


Hi Sootywooty. I will need to jump in here to make a correction to this scenario. I am sorry to say that in your frame, in fact you decided to proceed incorrectly. The Black should have been re-spotted and the next stroke played from in hand decided by a coin flip, not your opponent's decision (despite the fact that it was you who fouled).

It would be best if you go back and read this post:

viewtopic.php?f=468&t=6861#p443882

for a full explanation, but to summarize, the Rule states clearly, ""When Black is the only object ball remaining on the table, the first score or foul ends the frame..." and that ALWAYS applies, frame is over. At least the regulation frame is over, but in your case the score is drawn after the foul so it is a special circumstance. What happens in this special circumstance is sort of a "mini-frame", overtime if you will, and that is the reason why the Black must be re-spotted and a coin must be tossed to decide the "breakoff stroke".

So one of your friends explained, "...one of my mates said the black is not respotted and stays put because was not an in off" and even BadSnookerPlayer, a very knowledgeable player, said, "It is only a re-spot if the black is potted to tie the frame." So it is perfectly understandable to be confused by this Rule. So let me clarify in a general sense.

By their nature, the Rules of Snooker attempt to be all-encompassing meaning that the Rules apply always to all players in all circumstances no matter what. Occasionally, the Rule may have an exception. (For instance, at least one foot must be touching the floor when a stroke is played............except in the case that you are a wheelchair player. That is in the Rules.)

So this business about "B-b-b-but the Black wasn't potted so it cannot be re-spotted" simply is not true. Look at it this way...every stroke which is ever played on a Snooker table can be classified in one of only two possible ways: 1) Fair stroke or 2) Foul stroke. That is it. HOW a foul occurs does not matter in the slightest. So the rule says that when the Black is the only object ball remaining on the table, the frame is over as soon as the Black is either potted on a fair stroke OR when a foul stroke occurs (a foul of any sort). When the game is over and the state of the scores happens to be that they are drawn level, then we proceed to the standard "tie-breaking" measure of the mini Black Ball frame. Re-spot and coin flip to decide.

I hope you didn't have a wager on your frame or any significance to it as the frame actually proceeded incorrectly and so the result really ought to be nullified. If you would like to verify the exact Rule that applies here, it is Section 3., Rule 4. (a) and (b).

Re: Tied frame

Postby sootywooty

Thanks Alot!! Acesinc, Yes i did dispute it because i recalled reading what you said in the rules about the level scores but was not sure. Their was no wager involved so no worries, but i must admit i do like to win if i can so i will remember that one for the future.

No worries BSP the rules are very complex maybe even harder than the game at times.

Re: Tied frame

Postby Pink Ball

This happened in a world championship first-round decider between Nigel Bond and Stephen Hendry. Bond potted the winning black, or so he thought. He actually went in-off, and a re-spot was needed as the scores were tied.

Bond won anyway.

Re: Tied frame

Postby sootywooty

Yes Pink Ball!! I see that example when searching utube for a maybe answer, but i thought well that could be the only way because the black was down so had to go back on it own spot, because of the pot and then the foul. But thanks for your input to help on this topic.

Another complex one is in the freeball rule, when it is in a keep on replacing because of a foul and a miss situation, someone has told me if another snooker happens the player can be offered another freeball each time in the chain should it occur till the snooker is escaped from not really sure on this one either.

We only play the offer then one miss in are games as to speed things up, and also stops the argument about an accurate replace, is bad enough with the arguments that breakout regards the more simple rules lol.

Re: Tied frame

Postby acesinc

Pink Ball wrote:This happened in a world championship first-round decider between Nigel Bond and Stephen Hendry. Bond potted the winning black, or so he thought. He actually went in-off, and a re-spot was needed as the scores were tied.

Bond won anyway.


Fair play that Bond ultimately won this. Perhaps my most disappointing moment in regards to Stephen Hendry. The gamesmanship runs deep in this one.

https://youtu.be/TvPEBIF8dbc?t=218

(I can't figure out how to embed the YouTube if anyone has a tip for me...)

Probably an unpopular opinion here, but when Stephen cracked his cue, that is a clear sign of concession. By the Rules, the striker may accept or reject an offer of concession. By playing on, Nigel Bond in essence said, "I do not accept your concession, I will pot this ball." He didn't have to do that. He could have laid down his cue and extended his hand to accept Stephen's concession. Stephen very probably would have said, "He has to pot that ball!" but had I been the referee (and I am guessing any referee worth his/her salt), my reply would be that by cracking the cue, Stephen effectively said, "I have no intention of playing another stroke this match." i.e., "I concede." Case closed. This is very probably another case in point that surprisingly often, the players don't really know the more subtle rules of the game.

Lesson for the players here...if you are in a match, say with some minor wager on the line, and your unevolved brute of an opponent pulls the adolescent trick of cracking the cue like this, lay your cue down and accept the concession. No need at all to prove your manliness by potting the ball anyway under the pressure.Tell him if he cracked his cue, it was obviously to free up his hands to pull out his wallet. You will wow him with your super-human intelligence and knowledge of the Rules. And once a concession is offered, it CANNOT be rescinded. That is also in the Rules. Sorry, if you put your cue back together, it doesn't matter. Pay up.

Re: Tied frame

Postby sootywooty

Lol!! Aces, yes a knowledge of the rules is good maybe best to kid them you have been for refs training but you prefered to play in the end.

Re: Tied frame

Postby Pink Ball

acesinc wrote:
Pink Ball wrote:This happened in a world championship first-round decider between Nigel Bond and Stephen Hendry. Bond potted the winning black, or so he thought. He actually went in-off, and a re-spot was needed as the scores were tied.

Bond won anyway.


Fair play that Bond ultimately won this. Perhaps my most disappointing moment in regards to Stephen Hendry. The gamesmanship runs deep in this one.

https://youtu.be/TvPEBIF8dbc?t=218

(I can't figure out how to embed the YouTube if anyone has a tip for me...)

Probably an unpopular opinion here, but when Stephen cracked his cue, that is a clear sign of concession. By the Rules, the striker may accept or reject an offer of concession. By playing on, Nigel Bond in essence said, "I do not accept your concession, I will pot this ball." He didn't have to do that. He could have laid down his cue and extended his hand to accept Stephen's concession. Stephen very probably would have said, "He has to pot that ball!" but had I been the referee (and I am guessing any referee worth his/her salt), my reply would be that by cracking the cue, Stephen effectively said, "I have no intention of playing another stroke this match." i.e., "I concede." Case closed. This is very probably another case in point that surprisingly often, the players don't really know the more subtle rules of the game.

Lesson for the players here...if you are in a match, say with some minor wager on the line, and your unevolved brute of an opponent pulls the adolescent trick of cracking the cue like this, lay your cue down and accept the concession. No need at all to prove your manliness by potting the ball anyway under the pressure.Tell him if he cracked his cue, it was obviously to free up his hands to pull out his wallet. You will wow him with your super-human intelligence and knowledge of the Rules. And once a concession is offered, it CANNOT be rescinded. That is also in the Rules. Sorry, if you put your cue back together, it doesn't matter. Pay up.

And Steve Davis would have been world champion in 1985

Re: Tied frame

Postby acesinc

Pink Ball wrote:And Steve Davis would have been world champion in 1985


Pinky, to be clear, you are saying that Dennis Taylor cracked his cue in 1985? I watched it live on telly and I have watched the video maybe a dozen times. I never noticed this. Unless maybe it was a different frame, not the decider. Were you there live at the Crucible and saw something personally that perhaps was not on telly? I ask in all honesty as I have never noted anything untoward. No matter, an offer of concession must be accepted by the striker and clearly in 1985, just as Nigel Bond against Stephen Hendry, Steve Davis did not indicate that he was aware of let alone accept an indication of concession so the impetus was on him to pot the ball. He didn't.

Re: Tied frame

Postby rekoons

Basic question: in case of a respotted black, who gets to break off?

Does the player who potted the black gets to choose who breaks the respot, or is it always the player who broke of the frame itself?

Re: Tied frame

Postby Dan-cat

rekoons wrote:Basic question: in case of a respotted black, who gets to break off?

Does the player who potted the black gets to choose who breaks the respot, or is it always the player who broke of the frame itself?


Whoever conceeded the least penalty points during the frame gets the break. That's why on traditional scoreboards there are four rows of sliders - the other ones are for keeping score of how many penalty points have been amassed during the frame. I don't know why this tradition fell away, those extra sliders are unused now.

Re: Tied frame

Postby Iranu

I never knew that, Dan!

What happens if neither player concedes any penalty points?

Re: Tied frame

Postby Badsnookerplayer

Never heard of that D.C.. Nugget of info.

Thought the other scores were for other types of games and respot decided by coin toss.

Re: Tied frame

Postby Dan-cat

If they are tied then it’s a coin toss. My guess is re-spotted frames came up so rarely people just stopped bothering. I had one tonight!! Potted a delicious long pink and landed plum behind the black that was on the top cushion. (Black cushion that is.) lost the re-spot though. Played the modern shot of putting it on the side cushion and left an acute angle tickler into the middle bag which my opponent duly got.

Re: Tied frame

Postby acesinc

Interesting tidbit, Dan-Cat, never heard that before. I have played on many traditional old four line scoreboards and I have wondered.....who ever uses all four lines? I just assumed the main purpose is for "threesomes" so one of the mates doesn't need to sit at the bar getting snake hissed awaiting his turn. And the fourth line is there....just because; the number line is already there so may as well add a slider. Of course, a "foursome" is normally played as doubles requiring only two scorelines so your point makes some sense. Have you played by this rule before? Or just heard about it? I have to wonder if this may be a "local rule" of some sort. Many people seem to believe that "flip a coin" is the Rule to determine; in fact, that is not true. The Rules simply state "the players draw lots"...and that essentially means anything to which they agree. They can arm wrestle if they'd like. Or skeet shoot. Flipping the coin is just the simple traditional method. So your "penalty points" method is not required by the Rules. But it is also not against them and perfectly valid.

Re: Tied frame

Postby Badsnookerplayer

Funny that as I just recalled that I used to play 3 and sometimes four handed snooker and we used all four rails in the scoreboard.
It is a pain playing that though as any foul points go to the preceding player so you benefit from going before a poor player.

Re: Tied frame

Postby acesinc

Badsnookerplayer wrote:Funny that as I just recalled that I used to play 3 and sometimes four handed snooker and we used all four rails in the scoreboard.
It is a pain playing that though as any foul points go to the preceding player so you benefit from going before a poor player.


I don't recall that I have ever been in a four-handed frame.....would generally just double up as the A and D player team and the B and C player team.

As for 3 way, that was and remains fairly popular among my (admittedly very limited) crowd. If you happen to have three fairly low level players around the table, it is quite a bore for one to sit there for 30, 40 minutes or more waiting to have a go. When I am on the table, I tend to be cognizant of the poor bastard sitting there moping and I try to rush the frame to get him in. As the venue operator, I want to see people having fun at the table; keeps them coming back. So with three in the club, I prefer to play a special version of three handed snooker for EXACTLY the reason you stated......unbalanced foul points. It is called Only Offence and it works like this:

Players play in order A, B, C and maintain order throughout. If someone commits a foul, say A goes in off, then B and C both get penalty points. This is a "stupid" foul....you did something stupid yourself (in off, bumped a ball, jumped a ball off table) so ALL the other players benefit. But here is the kicker....there is no benefit whatsoever to playing safety strokes because the incoming striker ALWAYS maintains the right to put the outgoing striker back in to play....essentially, just like the usual option after a foul is committed; you can put the other guy back in to play whatever he left you (even though he did not commit a foul). So say A accidentally ends up leaving a fluke snooker position after his attempted double......B looks at the table and says, "You can play it!" So A must play at the very shot that he left, a fluked snooker, and if he fouls now, B and C both get penalty points as a result. Hence the name, Only Offence, because there is no point at all in playing a safety stroke/defence/snooker because you cannot force the next player to commit a foul/play a difficult stroke so you may as well play an offensive stroke to try to score no matter how outlandish it may seem. This makes frames go much faster which is much more fun since 3-way is not really proper "competition". It is perfect for small wagers (loser buys next round) because the winner is not necessarily a foregone conclusion even with players of varied ability. The best part is if the preceding player puts you back in to play again....and you go ahead and POT a crazy shot! Especially if you can make a break out of it and score a few points. Good time!

The only other "different" rule for Only Offence is that once any player requires snookers to win, they are just OUT. No need to stay in and try to force a foul (because they CAN'T....see the name of the game). So say that A pots the Yellow and now B is 26 points behind A with only 25 on table, then B sits down, C is the next and only other striker. But B will not sit there long (in fact, he can take the time to go buy the next round) because after A pots Green, now C is 23 points down with 22 on the table. Frame is over, no player can continue with Snookers Required. Again, see the name of the game. So once the first player is out, it is usually only minutes before the next player is out and we have a winner. Rack up the next frame.

This is particularly good if you have a pub with a table rather than the Snooker Parlour atmosphere more conducive to proper competitive head-to-head snooker. I first played this at Gladstone's pub in Harrogate ages ago. I believe Dan knew the place as I recall.

Re: Tied frame

Postby Badsnookerplayer

Interesting read that Aces.

I like the 'play again ' option which adds a new dimension.

When playing friendlies, I never play for snookers as I like to get on with the next frame.

Re: Tied frame

Postby acesinc

Badsnookerplayer wrote:Interesting read that Aces.

I like the 'play again ' option which adds a new dimension.

When playing friendlies, I never play for snookers as I like to get on with the next frame.


Agreed about moving on to next frame. I enjoy the breakbuilding much more. I have witnessed the end game on colours span 30 minutes or more. Once at a three table club, my son and I spent an afternoon. I am racking up the Reds for a new frame and I notice the table next to us, they are playing on the Green at the end game. We run out our frame, fairly normal, 20ish minutes. I am chalking my cue to breakoff and I notice....they are now on the Pink! Wrist slitting mode for me when I have an opponent like that.

With Only Offence, it makes it much more fun if your mates (as I suspect) are a bit lower level than you. With an opponent a step down from me, I try to keep focus on the table only but the intensity clearly suffers with each passing frame. Three or four frames in and I find myself subconsciously laying Easter eggs in the jaws of the pocket in an effort to help the guy get a break going. This obviously doesn't help anybody's game to improve but most players don't really have the dedication for that anyway. Most just seem to feel pretty good if they can string a few good balls together so I try to facilitate that a bit.

And that is where Only Offence evens things out some. Obviously, a better player will not only be a better potter but also a better safety player. So normal Snooker, the lesser player has little chance to get in at all so his confidence level goes from low to non-existent. With Only Offence, at least the lesser player is certain to pot a few balls and if he steps to the table and doesn't like what he sees, he can always put the previous striker back in to play it. Strategy changes.....as striker, you attempt to find some possibility of a pot somewhere, plants, sets, in-offs, but then you are careful to NOT play strong safety accidentally. Instead, you play to your strengths but your opponents' weaknesses. For instance, say you play doubles well but your opponent doesn't like them. So of course you position for a double and leave the striker to follow in a conundrum. Makes for fun and interesting banter around the table. Perfect for friendlies.


   

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