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Re: Judd Trump is snooker's greatest talent

Postby Ace

Pink Ball wrote:
Sickpotter wrote:
Ace wrote:
Holden Chinaski wrote:
Ace wrote:Nothing wrong in thinking Judd has taken the game to a new level, .

The only thing wrong with it is that it's NOT TRUE. I wis it was true, it would be amazing to see a player play better snooker than prime Hendry, Ronnie, and Higgins did. I would love that. But I have never seen it.


Then why is everyone saying it's the best standard there's been? Ronnie himself said it's better than his own game and Hendry's and Higgins, Higgins said he hasn't seen a talent like it, Davis said he wouldn't want to play Judd in the final and never seen such ferocious snooker etc

Are they all lying just because it's about Judd? If it was about Ronnie I bet you wouldn't disagree.


They are all hyping up the game and Judd as he's the new generation exciting player.

Judd played great in the final and deserved to win but I wouldn't say it was a better standard than we've seen before.

Higgins had a woeful season and while he produced patches of brilliance at the WC, he broke down on clearances far more than a prime Higgins ever would. Those clearances that Higgins is usually so good at (and which apply so much pressure to his opponent) were mostly absent from the final. IMO we got flashes of Johns B game but mostly his C game while Judd was definitely on his A game.

For the record I think Judd would've lost in every one of those proposed match ups by about the same margin.....18 (Hendry/ROS/Higgins) - 12 2019 Judd

I actually don’t agree with that. I’m honestly not sure if I’ve seen a better performance in a world final. And I’ve seen the lot of em.


If you haven't seen a better performance then why r u disagreeing with me lol

Re: Judd Trump is snooker's greatest talent

Postby Ace

D4P wrote:The 5 players that Judd Trump beat at the WC had played in a combined total of 2 finals this season and had won a combined total of 1 ranking event, and that 1 ranking event was the Shootout.


Or, you can look at it and say Judd beat a 13 ranking events winner and 3x triple crown winner in the 2R and a 4x wc champion and 3x on the roll runner-up, greatest match player in the final. :chin:

Besides Judd was playing too good to be stopped by anyone his only downfall is lower ranked players but against the best he plays the best and beats them as this season has shown

Re: Judd Trump is snooker's greatest talent

Postby D4P

Ace wrote:
D4P wrote:Or, you can look at it and say Judd beat a 13 ranking events winner and 3x triple crown winner in the 2R and a 4x wc champion and 3x on the roll runner-up, greatest match player in the final. :chin:


Both of those players had horrible seasons by their own standards. One of them didn't make it past the QF of a ranking event this season, and the other has been on the verge of retiring all season long.

Re: Judd Trump is snooker's greatest talent

Postby Holden Chinaski

Ace wrote:
D4P wrote:The 5 players that Judd Trump beat at the WC had played in a combined total of 2 finals this season and had won a combined total of 1 ranking event, and that 1 ranking event was the Shootout.


Or, you can look at it and say Judd beat a 13 ranking events winner and 3x triple crown winner in the 2R and a 4x wc champion and 3x on the roll runner-up, greatest match player in the final. :chin:

Besides Judd was playing too good to be stopped by anyone his only downfall is lower ranked players but against the best he plays the best and beats them as this season has shown

Didn't beat Ronnie at the Tour Championship. Didn't beat Robbo at the Players Championship. Didn't beat Murphy at the Scottish Open.

Re: Judd Trump is snooker's greatest talent

Postby Iranu

Judd’s obviously the best player in the world right now, I don’t think that’s up for debate after his WC victory.

That doesn’t mean he’s taken the game to new heights though. Selby was the dominant player from 2014-2017, but he didn’t raise the standard of the game.

Pundits say stuff like this all the time. When MJW won last year many were saying that he was playing better than when he was dominant in the early 00s.

But let’s be honest, just the fact that we’re having this debate about a player under 30 is a great thing and hopefully a good sign for the game.

Re: Judd Trump is snooker's greatest talent

Postby Iranu

Holden Chinaski wrote:
Holden Chinaski wrote:
Badsnookerplayer wrote:I think Cloud Strife makes a good point

Rather than listen to pundits like O'Sullivan, Davis and Hendry you should listen to him and Holden.

Finally a reasonable, non-passive aggressive post. Cheers BSP :hatoff:

Wildey, Iranu, Sickpotter, The Rocket and MDG, are also good to listen to, by the way.

I’m honoured to be included among such greats of the forum :bowdown:

Re: Judd Trump is snooker's greatest talent

Postby Ace

D4P wrote:
Ace wrote:
D4P wrote:Or, you can look at it and say Judd beat a 13 ranking events winner and 3x triple crown winner in the 2R and a 4x wc champion and 3x on the roll runner-up, greatest match player in the final. :chin:


Both of those players had horrible seasons by their own standards. One of them didn't make it past the QF of a ranking event this season, and the other has been on the verge of retiring all season long.


World champs is different to the season because the form you have in a season doesn't matter the form you will have for the wc for example Ronnie had a 5 tournament winning season but crashed out of the first round. Higgins had a bad season but reached the final. Selby once didn't win anything and won the World champs. Ronnie took out a whole season and won the world champs.

It's all different. Very rarely you get to see consistency from a season translating into wc.

Re: Judd Trump is snooker's greatest talent

Postby Ace

Holden Chinaski wrote:
Ace wrote:
D4P wrote:The 5 players that Judd Trump beat at the WC had played in a combined total of 2 finals this season and had won a combined total of 1 ranking event, and that 1 ranking event was the Shootout.


Or, you can look at it and say Judd beat a 13 ranking events winner and 3x triple crown winner in the 2R and a 4x wc champion and 3x on the roll runner-up, greatest match player in the final. :chin:

Besides Judd was playing too good to be stopped by anyone his only downfall is lower ranked players but against the best he plays the best and beats them as this season has shown

Didn't beat Ronnie at the Tour Championship. Didn't beat Robbo at the Players Championship. Didn't beat Murphy at the Scottish Open.


Judd wasn't peaking at the Scottish, should've won against Ronnie but choked on yellow besides he beat Ronnie 2x in finals including Masters final which is Ronnie's playground

Re: Judd Trump is snooker's greatest talent

Postby Ace

Iranu wrote:Judd’s obviously the best player in the world right now, I don’t think that’s up for debate after his WC victory.

That doesn’t mean he’s taken the game to new heights though. Selby was the dominant player from 2014-2017, but he didn’t raise the standard of the game.

Pundits say stuff like this all the time. When MJW won last year many were saying that he was playing better than when he was dominant in the early 00s.

But let’s be honest, just the fact that we’re having this debate about a player under 30 is a great thing and hopefully a good sign for the game.


Selby is a grinder so he can't take the game to new heights and he doesn't create buzz. His peak is lesser than all 4 of them. Judd on the other hand plays snooker everyone likes and wows everyone, leaves a lasting impression because he's attacking and makes very big breaks.

But I don't think it's wrong to say he brought it to new levels. Again, look, Ronnie also did bring the game to new levels but they play differently even though they have the same attacking mindset

Re: Judd Trump is snooker's greatest talent

Postby Holden Chinaski

Ace wrote:Judd wasn't peaking at the Scottish, should've won against Ronnie but choked on yellow besides he beat Ronnie 2x in finals including Masters final which is Ronnie's playground

Good for him, but it's not like Judd always beats Ronnie. I remember a UK final, a Champion of Champions final, a world championship semi-final...Ronnie keeps getting older. Judd is bound to win more now. Judd is great but he's lucky Selby is not performing and the class of '92 is getting old.

Re: Judd Trump is snooker's greatest talent

Postby Ace

Judd's game is more like going to a rock concert. There'll be crunching shots, long pots, hard hitting but solid snooker.

Ronnie's game is more finesse, touch and feel, and visually looks better because he makes it look more easier than Judd. It's like a symphony, opposite of a rock concert.

but you can still have Judd's rockstar game dominate over Ronnie's symphonic game in terms of performance.

Re: Judd Trump is snooker's greatest talent

Postby Ace

Holden Chinaski wrote:
Ace wrote:Judd wasn't peaking at the Scottish, should've won against Ronnie but choked on yellow besides he beat Ronnie 2x in finals including Masters final which is Ronnie's playground

Good for him, but it's not like Judd always beats Ronnie. I remember a UK final, a Champion of Champions final, a world championship semi-final...Ronnie keeps getting older. Judd is bound to win more now. Judd is great but he's lucky Selby is not performing and the class of '92 is getting old.


I agree those were good wins but Judd wasn't on the level there as he is now surely

Re: Judd Trump is snooker's greatest talent

Postby Pink Ball

Ace wrote:
Pink Ball wrote:
Sickpotter wrote:
Ace wrote:
Holden Chinaski wrote:The only thing wrong with it is that it's NOT TRUE. I wis it was true, it would be amazing to see a player play better snooker than prime Hendry, Ronnie, and Higgins did. I would love that. But I have never seen it.


Then why is everyone saying it's the best standard there's been? Ronnie himself said it's better than his own game and Hendry's and Higgins, Higgins said he hasn't seen a talent like it, Davis said he wouldn't want to play Judd in the final and never seen such ferocious snooker etc

Are they all lying just because it's about Judd? If it was about Ronnie I bet you wouldn't disagree.


They are all hyping up the game and Judd as he's the new generation exciting player.

Judd played great in the final and deserved to win but I wouldn't say it was a better standard than we've seen before.

Higgins had a woeful season and while he produced patches of brilliance at the WC, he broke down on clearances far more than a prime Higgins ever would. Those clearances that Higgins is usually so good at (and which apply so much pressure to his opponent) were mostly absent from the final. IMO we got flashes of Johns B game but mostly his C game while Judd was definitely on his A game.

For the record I think Judd would've lost in every one of those proposed match ups by about the same margin.....18 (Hendry/ROS/Higgins) - 12 2019 Judd

I actually don’t agree with that. I’m honestly not sure if I’ve seen a better performance in a world final. And I’ve seen the lot of em.


If you haven't seen a better performance then why r u disagreeing with me lol

Because I don’t agree that he’s better than Higgins, Hendry or Sullivan overall. Or that he’s taken the game to a level never seen before.

One swallow doesn’t make wife material.

Re: Judd Trump is snooker's greatest talent

Postby Ace

Pink Ball wrote:Because I don’t agree that he’s better than Higgins, Hendry or Sullivan overall. Or that he’s taken the game to a level never seen before.

One swallow doesn’t make wife material.


You seem to be mistaking me of course Judd isn't greater than those 3 he doesn't have the trophies or records for it of course but I'm just talking about the level of play and you said you can't find a higher level of snooker so when you compare it to 2004 ronnie for example the only logical conclusion there could be is Judd 2019 > Ronnie 2004 otherwise you would say Ronnie played at a higher level in 2004 but you said you haven't seen a better performance than Judd's.

Re: Judd Trump is snooker's greatest talent

Postby Ace

Holden Chinaski wrote:Want to see rockstar snooker? Watch the fastest 147 by ronnie. Or the rocket blasts off vid on youtube.


I don't disagree I'm not arguing Ronnie's fast play and I don't see anyone beating his fastest 147 it was one of the best achievements in snooker ever but i'm just saying you can still have a rockstar level snooker outperform a more classical, symphony level snooker. I mean the stats don't lie otherwise all the pundits and players wouldn't be talking about it

Re: Judd Trump is snooker's greatest talent

Postby Pink Ball

Ace wrote:
Pink Ball wrote:Because I don’t agree that he’s better than Higgins, Hendry or Sullivan overall. Or that he’s taken the game to a level never seen before.

One swallow doesn’t make wife material.


You seem to be mistaking me of course Judd isn't greater than those 3 he doesn't have the trophies or records for it of course but I'm just talking about the level of play and you said you can't find a higher level of snooker so when you compare it to 2004 ronnie for example the only logical conclusion there could be is Judd 2019 > Ronnie 2004 otherwise you would say Ronnie played at a higher level in 2004 but you said you haven't seen a better performance than Judd's.

I don’t THINK I’ve seen a better performance in a World final. I’ve seen several performances better otherwise. Not many, but a few all the same.

Re: Judd Trump is snooker's greatest talent

Postby Ace

Pink Ball wrote:
Ace wrote:
Pink Ball wrote:Because I don’t agree that he’s better than Higgins, Hendry or Sullivan overall. Or that he’s taken the game to a level never seen before.

One swallow doesn’t make wife material.


You seem to be mistaking me of course Judd isn't greater than those 3 he doesn't have the trophies or records for it of course but I'm just talking about the level of play and you said you can't find a higher level of snooker so when you compare it to 2004 ronnie for example the only logical conclusion there could be is Judd 2019 > Ronnie 2004 otherwise you would say Ronnie played at a higher level in 2004 but you said you haven't seen a better performance than Judd's.

I don’t THINK I’ve seen a better performance in a World final. I’ve seen several performances better otherwise. Not many, but a few all the same.


So what are your scorelines for my matchups?

Re: Judd Trump is snooker's greatest talent

Postby Pink Ball

Ace wrote:
Pink Ball wrote:
Ace wrote:
Pink Ball wrote:Because I don’t agree that he’s better than Higgins, Hendry or Sullivan overall. Or that he’s taken the game to a level never seen before.

One swallow doesn’t make wife material.


You seem to be mistaking me of course Judd isn't greater than those 3 he doesn't have the trophies or records for it of course but I'm just talking about the level of play and you said you can't find a higher level of snooker so when you compare it to 2004 ronnie for example the only logical conclusion there could be is Judd 2019 > Ronnie 2004 otherwise you would say Ronnie played at a higher level in 2004 but you said you haven't seen a better performance than Judd's.

I don’t THINK I’ve seen a better performance in a World final. I’ve seen several performances better otherwise. Not many, but a few all the same.


So what are your scorelines for my matchups?

I think peak Sullivan would beat him soundly enough, maybe 18-14 or 18-13.

Closer against peak Hendry or Higgins, but still a loss.

Re: Judd Trump is snooker's greatest talent

Postby Iranu

Ace wrote:
Iranu wrote:Judd’s obviously the best player in the world right now, I don’t think that’s up for debate after his WC victory.

That doesn’t mean he’s taken the game to new heights though. Selby was the dominant player from 2014-2017, but he didn’t raise the standard of the game.

Pundits say stuff like this all the time. When MJW won last year many were saying that he was playing better than when he was dominant in the early 00s.

But let’s be honest, just the fact that we’re having this debate about a player under 30 is a great thing and hopefully a good sign for the game.


Selby is a grinder so he can't take the game to new heights and he doesn't create buzz. His peak is lesser than all 4 of them. Judd on the other hand plays snooker everyone likes and wows everyone, leaves a lasting impression because he's attacking and makes very big breaks.

But I don't think it's wrong to say he brought it to new levels. Again, look, Ronnie also did bring the game to new levels but they play differently even though they have the same attacking mindset

Selby is so much more than just a grinder, he’s one of the most prolific breakbuilders in the game. You’ve shown yourself up for your lack of snooker knowledge there. His peak is also pretty awesome. There are few players in the history of snooker whose peaks are on Selby’s level.

How has Judd brought snooker to a new level? You haven’t actually explained this. He performed extremely well in the world final. But other players have performed better in other matches.

One performance is not a game changer.
Last edited by Iranu on 10 May 2019, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Judd Trump is snooker's greatest talent

Postby Badsnookerplayer

The new poster Ace has made a quick impression.


I think Judd is a very deserving World Champion on the back of that performance and currently the best player in the world. Being voted as Player of the Season in the meaningful polls was a foregone conclusion IMO.

Hopefully Ace will stick around and bring some more balance to the forum.

Re: Judd Trump is snooker's greatest talent

Postby Ace

Pink Ball wrote:
Ace wrote:
Pink Ball wrote:
Ace wrote:
Pink Ball wrote:Because I don’t agree that he’s better than Higgins, Hendry or Sullivan overall. Or that he’s taken the game to a level never seen before.

One swallow doesn’t make wife material.


You seem to be mistaking me of course Judd isn't greater than those 3 he doesn't have the trophies or records for it of course but I'm just talking about the level of play and you said you can't find a higher level of snooker so when you compare it to 2004 ronnie for example the only logical conclusion there could be is Judd 2019 > Ronnie 2004 otherwise you would say Ronnie played at a higher level in 2004 but you said you haven't seen a better performance than Judd's.

I don’t THINK I’ve seen a better performance in a World final. I’ve seen several performances better otherwise. Not many, but a few all the same.


So what are your scorelines for my matchups?

I think peak Sullivan would beat him soundly enough, maybe 18-14 or 18-13.

Closer against peak Hendry or Higgins, but still a loss.


So why did you say you haven't seen a higher level than Judd's performance? contradicting hmm

Re: Judd Trump is snooker's greatest talent

Postby D4P

Badsnookerplayer wrote:The new poster Ace has made a quick impression.


I think Judd is a very deserving World Champion on the back of that performance and currently the best player in the world. Being voted as Player of the Season in the meaningful polls was a foregone conclusion IMO.

Hopefully Ace will stick around and bring some more balance to the forum.


Have you disregarded your initial instinct that Ace = Ash...?

Re: Judd Trump is snooker's greatest talent

Postby Ace

Iranu wrote:
Ace wrote:
Iranu wrote:Judd’s obviously the best player in the world right now, I don’t think that’s up for debate after his WC victory.

That doesn’t mean he’s taken the game to new heights though. Selby was the dominant player from 2014-2017, but he didn’t raise the standard of the game.

Pundits say stuff like this all the time. When MJW won last year many were saying that he was playing better than when he was dominant in the early 00s.

But let’s be honest, just the fact that we’re having this debate about a player under 30 is a great thing and hopefully a good sign for the game.


Selby is a grinder so he can't take the game to new heights and he doesn't create buzz. His peak is lesser than all 4 of them. Judd on the other hand plays snooker everyone likes and wows everyone, leaves a lasting impression because he's attacking and makes very big breaks.

But I don't think it's wrong to say he brought it to new levels. Again, look, Ronnie also did bring the game to new levels but they play differently even though they have the same attacking mindset

Selby is so much more than just a grinder, he’s one of the most prolific breakbuilders in the game. You’ve shown yourself up for your lack of snooker knowledge there. His peak is also pretty awesome. There are few players in the history of snooker whose peaks are on Selby’s level.

How has Judd brought snooker to a new level? You haven’t actually explained this. He performed extremely well in the world final. But other players have performed better in other matches.

One performance is not a game changer.


Selby doesn't produce the same level of peakiness as the 4 like Ronnie, Hendry, Higgins and Judd they are powerhouses while with Selby you always get chances it's just that his safety is too good and drags players to his level but he doesn't blow off opponents and play a high level of snooker. Judd doesn't drag anyone down as he matched them power for power then outpowers them. That's why no one talks about Selby raising standards...because he never otherwise the media would have said 2017 was the greatest standard ever and that was peak selby but did you hear it in the media? no

I have explained this throughout my posts in this thread if you read them!

The jist is 7 centuries and 15 breaks over 50, no one has played to that high of a standard in a wc final and he did it against John Higgins who is a 4x WC champion and the greatest match player of all time as well as being Judd's nemesis so Judd had a lot of pressure to deal with. Safety didn't work on Judd because he was potting all the balls from all over the place and producing frame winning breaks and didn't give Higgins the time of the table, as Higgins said Trump overpowered the table.

Re: Judd Trump is snooker's greatest talent

Postby Holden Chinaski

Badsnookerplayer wrote:This Ace poster is very smart. He has trapped PinkBall in a web of his own making already.

I always admire a man of wit.

He has not. I think Pink Ball is of the opinion that Judd would not have performed like that against Hendry or Ronnie in their prime. That's what I think anyway.

Re: Judd Trump is snooker's greatest talent

Postby Ace

Badsnookerplayer wrote:The new poster Ace has made a quick impression.


I think Judd is a very deserving World Champion on the back of that performance and currently the best player in the world. Being voted as Player of the Season in the meaningful polls was a foregone conclusion IMO.

Hopefully Ace will stick around and bring some more balance to the forum.


Hi what is this balance? :chin: