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Foul by other player on your shot

Postby chengdufan

So I thought I'd ask this in the rules thread as it seemed to get lost in the tournament thread.

Selby cleared to the pink and then played an exhibition shot on the black, sending it around 4 cushions. The pot was going to just miss, so his opponent, Brecel, used his cue to alter the trajectory of the ball so that it went in.

Referee called a foul, but I couldn't hear which player he called the foul on as the commentator was talking over it.

Left me intrigued.

Re: Foul by other player on your shot

Postby chengdufan

Thanks HappyCamper <ok>

So a particular non-sporting sort, let's call him Player B, could in theory do the following.

Player A needs a red and a black to get to the snookers required stage. He pots the red, and the white is headed nicely towards perfect position on the black.
Player B, walking with a resigned look back to his chair, let's his cue 'slip' and hit the green.
Foul and 4 away, but not the 7 needed. And now player A finds himself with no pot available for the next ball on, the yellow. :chin:

Re: Foul by other player on your shot

Postby Andre147

chengdufan wrote:Thanks HappyCamper <ok>

So a particular non-sporting sort, let's call him Player B, could in theory do the following.

Player A needs a red and a black to get to the snookers required stage. He pots the red, and the white is headed nicely towards perfect position on the black.
Player B, walking with a resigned look back to his chair, let's his cue 'slip' and hit the green.
Foul and 4 away, but not the 7 needed. And now player A finds himself with no pot available for the next ball on, the yellow. :chin:


In that instance the referee will warn the offending player for unsporting conduct, and were he do make another similar action again he would forfeit the frame.

Re: Foul by other player on your shot

Postby HappyCamper

chengdufan wrote:Thanks HappyCamper <ok>

So a particular non-sporting sort, let's call him Player B, could in theory do the following.

Player A needs a red and a black to get to the snookers required stage. He pots the red, and the white is headed nicely towards perfect position on the black.
Player B, walking with a resigned look back to his chair, let's his cue 'slip' and hit the green.
Foul and 4 away, but not the 7 needed. And now player A finds himself with no pot available for the next ball on, the yellow. :chin:


Think the ref would have to warn the player then.

Re: Foul by other player on your shot

Postby Iranu

Andre147 wrote:
chengdufan wrote:Thanks HappyCamper <ok>

So a particular non-sporting sort, let's call him Player B, could in theory do the following.

Player A needs a red and a black to get to the snookers required stage. He pots the red, and the white is headed nicely towards perfect position on the black.
Player B, walking with a resigned look back to his chair, let's his cue 'slip' and hit the green.
Foul and 4 away, but not the 7 needed. And now player A finds himself with no pot available for the next ball on, the yellow. :chin:


In that instance the referee will warn the offending player for unsporting conduct, and were he do make another similar action again he would forfeit the frame.

So Player A wouldn’t still be able to pot the black, then? Bit harsh!

Re: Foul by other player on your shot

Postby Andre147

Iranu wrote:
Andre147 wrote:
chengdufan wrote:Thanks HappyCamper <ok>

So a particular non-sporting sort, let's call him Player B, could in theory do the following.

Player A needs a red and a black to get to the snookers required stage. He pots the red, and the white is headed nicely towards perfect position on the black.
Player B, walking with a resigned look back to his chair, let's his cue 'slip' and hit the green.
Foul and 4 away, but not the 7 needed. And now player A finds himself with no pot available for the next ball on, the yellow. :chin:


In that instance the referee will warn the offending player for unsporting conduct, and were he do make another similar action again he would forfeit the frame.

So Player A wouldn’t still be able to pot the black, then? Bit harsh!


That's how it is, but the warning would follow straight after to Player B.

Re: Foul by other player on your shot

Postby chengdufan

Got it, thanks fellas. Deviousness doesn't pay!

Going back to the original post, and apologies for belabouring the point, but did the ref really have to call the foul and go to the trouble of the lengthy monologue to explain the score?
Why not just say 'Mark Selby 53... And the frame'

Re: Foul by other player on your shot

Postby Iranu

Seems a bit crazy. Player B would be more than happy to take the warning in order to not require snookers.

Re: Foul by other player on your shot

Postby SnookerEd25

Didn't Alfie Burden do something similar in the first Championship League of lockdown, which could have had ramifications with the highest break that could have decided the group? :chin:

(I forget exactly how it played out, but something like this occurred...)

Re: Foul by other player on your shot

Postby Andre147

SnookerEd25 wrote:Didn't Alfie Burden do something similar in the first Championship League of lockdown, which could have had ramifications with the highest break that could have decided the group? :chin:

(I forget exactly how it played out, but something like this occurred...)


Yes it did happen, and the referee warned him for it.

Re: Foul by other player on your shot

Postby Alex0paul

I’ve always wondered if Player A was on a 147 to equal Player Bs 147 to share the prize money could Player B just deliberately foul to stop the other player getting a maximum?

Ie just walking up and taking the black off the table

Re: Foul by other player on your shot

Postby Badsnookerplayer

Alex0paul wrote:I’ve always wondered if Player A was on a 147 to equal Player Bs 147 to share the prize money could Player B just deliberately foul to stop the other player getting a maximum?

Ie just walking up and taking the black off the table

I think it would be replaced but you could use more subtle methods like dancing Gangnam Style on his backswing.

Rules don't cover that

Re: Foul by other player on your shot

Postby acesinc

Andre147 wrote:
chengdufan wrote:Thanks HappyCamper <ok>

So a particular non-sporting sort, let's call him Player B, could in theory do the following.

Player A needs a red and a black to get to the snookers required stage. He pots the red, and the white is headed nicely towards perfect position on the black.
Player B, walking with a resigned look back to his chair, let's his cue 'slip' and hit the green.
Foul and 4 away, but not the 7 needed. And now player A finds himself with no pot available for the next ball on, the yellow. :chin:


In that instance the referee will warn the offending player for unsporting conduct, and were he do make another similar action again he would forfeit the frame.


Andre, of course I have the greatest respect for your knowledge and experience, but I don't think you have the complete story for this one. I admit that I cannot find a specific Rule to cover this exact circumstance, but navigating around the Rules with my magnifying glass and Holmesian cap and overcoat, my own ruling appears to differ from yours. I invite response and will be happy to be corrected if necessary.

Start with Section 2., Definitions, 15. Infringements, Fouls and Penalties:

"An infringement is any violation of these Rules.
A foul is an infringement which will end the offender’s turn.
Penalties are infringements which do not affect the order of play."

So what we actually have here is an infringement, not a foul. It will have no effect on the order of play, meaning that the infringement causes additional penalty points to be awarded above and beyond the points scored in the striker's turn at the table. So the non-striker commits an infringement, the Referee calls, "Foul," (or maybe he or she says, "Penalty!" instead....I have never been certain about this one,) appropriate points are awarded, and the striker simply continues his turn at the table, playing at the colour of his choice.

EDIT: I literally just learned something re-reading what I wrote above! The Referee WILL call, "Penalty!" and not "Foul!". All Penalties and Fouls are considered to be infringements, but a Penalty is not the same thing as a Foul, and a Foul is not the same thing as a Penalty (although "penalty points" are awarded for ANY infringement). In other words, a PENALTY is essentially a foul which is committed by the NON-striker (so you don't call it a "foul", get it?) No wonder I have been confused about this for so long! END EDIT

Moving on to Section 3., Rule 10. (i):

"If a striker fouls any ball including the cue-ball prior to striking it, the appropriate penalty will be imposed. The non-offender may then elect to play themselves from the position left, or request the offender to play again from the position left or the original position. In the latter case, all balls shall be replaced and the ball on shall be the same as it was prior to the infringement, namely:
(i) any Red, where Red was the ball on;
(ii) the colour on, where all the Reds were off the
table;
(iii) a colour of the striker’s choice, where the ball on
was a colour after a Red, or a free ball nominated
as a Red had been potted.
A consultation period starts when the request is made
to replace the ball(s)."

While this Rule is written in regards to the striker, I assume the same would apply in the case of an infringement by the non-striker implying that the next ball on will be a colour of the striker's choice, certainly not the Yellow ball unless that is the choice. So Player A may still play at the Black if he wishes, then followed by Yellow for the final sequence. In fact, the implication of this Rule is that the striker may now choose to have the Green replaced to where it had been or leave it in its new position if that is beneficial to him. I am not certain of this; merely trying to interpret what is written.

In fact, the assumption thus far has been that the penalty given for the now properly termed infringement would be four points as it was the Green that was disrupted. I believe the argument can actually be made that the penalty in fact should properly be seven. It would depend on whether the Referee had determined if the previous stroke of potting the Red had truly been completed. It is not a simple matter of "did the balls all stop moving?" If the White is moving in the direction of a pocket and there is even a small chance that it may go in off for a foul, then the Red stroke is certainly not complete. But the original description states, "...white is headed nicely towards perfect position on the black." With that, the Referee may have legitimately determined that the Red stroke is complete. You may notice on occasion that a Referee may call out the score, "One!" while there may still be some residual motion in the White or other balls, but clearly no further consequential actions will occur before the next stroke. So as our theoretical White was moving to perfect position on Black and the infringement occurred, the Referee may have already self determined the Red stroke as being complete and that we are now in a state of undetermined Colour. (He would NOT assume the ball on to be Black.....perhaps White may end up stopped with Pink in better position? The Referee will make no assumption here until he determines a nomination from the striker). In a state of as yet undetermined choice of colour, penalty points awarded will always be seven. So I believe the value of this penalty would be at the discretion of the controlling Referee, maybe he would call it four, maybe he would call it seven.

After all that, I certainly agree with Andre's assessment that a stern warning is in order. However, Player B undoubtedly will NOT benefit from his nefarious scheme. Quite the contrary, he has now found himself deeper in the hole, and with a recorded warning of unfair play and poor conduct. Crime does not pay.

Feel free to add, subtract, comment, correct.
Last edited by acesinc on 05 Nov 2020, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Foul by other player on your shot

Postby acesinc

SnookerEd25 wrote:Top sleuthing, Aces Holmes :hatoff:


Thanks, SnookerEd! In one fell swoop, that should also clear up Alexopaul's comment on the non-striker disrupting the final Black during the dispatch of an equalizer maximum. Again, crime does not pay!

Re: Foul by other player on your shot

Postby SnookerEd25

acesinc wrote:
SnookerEd25 wrote:Top sleuthing, Aces Holmes :hatoff:


Thanks, SnookerEd! In one fell swoop, that should also clear up Alexopaul's comment on the non-striker disrupting the final Black during the dispatch of an equalizer maximum. Again, crime does not pay!


Not in a game for gentlemen, Aces; and that is what ours is <ok>

Re: Foul by other player on your shot

Postby Dan-cat

SnookerEd25 wrote:
acesinc wrote:
SnookerEd25 wrote:Top sleuthing, Aces Holmes :hatoff:


Thanks, SnookerEd! In one fell swoop, that should also clear up Alexopaul's comment on the non-striker disrupting the final Black during the dispatch of an equalizer maximum. Again, crime does not pay!


Not in a game for gentlemen, Aces; and that is what ours is <ok>


:hatoff: